Re: The future of hybrid cars

From: Alex Terrell (alexterrell_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/13/04 

Date: 12 Oct 2004 23:53:17 -0700

"charliew2" <charliew2@ev1.net> wrote in message news:<10modcfaecron22@corp.supernews.com>...

> > At night time rates, 10 KWhrs costs 25p or 40c. This would replace a
> > gallon of petrol (~£4 in the UK, $2? in the USA). This would make it
> > very attractive for consumers.
>
> There is no cause without an effect. If you place a heavy demand on "night
> time" electricity, the charges for that electricity will increase
> accordingly. This means that your above economic argument will not
> withstand the test of time. For an example, look at the cost of diesel fuel
> before there were a lot of diesel automobiles on the road, and after there
> were.

Even day time electricity is much cheaper than petrol. Initially,
there is a price advantage that would encourage early adopters, which
is the most important figures.
>
>
> >
> > As most charging would be done at night, there would no need
> > (initially at least) for extra distribution or genration capacity.
>
> Do the math. This conclusion seems unfounded, given the millions of cars
> that would have to be charged on a daily basis.

Just guestimating, UK day time output = 60GW. Night time = 40GW. So
20GW spare capacity for 8 hours at night = 160 GWhrs, which is enough
to power up 16 million hybrid vehicles, which is a little over 50% of
the UK fleet.
>
> > In
> > time, unused cars could even become standby generators to sell
> > electricity at high rates back to the grid.
>
> What is the power source? If you use petro, you would be defeating the
> original idea of switching to electric cars in order to save petro.

By the time this is an option, fuel cells. This could be profitable if
a large part of generating capacity is moved to wind turbines. In
fact, having cars as energy stores and generators would make a shift
to renewables technically feasible.
>
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > Also, is electricity currently wasted at night?
>
> No. Electricity is used as it is demanded. When will this myth ever die?
> Electricity is an electric/magnetic field in a wire. It CAN'T be stored in
> substantial quantities, and it can't be "wasted".
>
It can be wasted at in resistors, or the heat of a generator can be
wasted. Most generators can't be just turned-off at night. Even if
they are, a huge amount of thermal energy is wasted.

> > I think some
> > generators (gas, hydro) can turn off to reduce supply. Lower prices
> > can encourage demand. Pumped storage can store energy. Is this enough?
> > What is the CO2 impact of increasing night time electricity load.
>
> The CO2 load is the same as if you increased daytime electricity load,
> because conservation of energy applies.

See above. Turning power stations off has significant cost. This will
be even more pronounced if renewables become more important, which
shouldn't be turned off.

What doesn't come out "even" is the
> fact that you have to build more generating capacity if you place a very
> heavy load on the grid during "peak" hours. Certainly, some of this capital
> expansion could be avoided by charging cars at night, but I seriously doubt
> that there is enough spare night time capacity to avoid all capital
> expansion.

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