Re: The future of hybrid cars

From: charliew2 (charliew2_at_ev1.net)
Date: 10/14/04 

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:18:03 -0500

Alex Terrell <alexterrell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d81e59c9.0410141424.7b9c48f3@posting.google.com...
> Dan Bloomquist <EXTRApublic21@lakeweb.com> wrote in message
news:<416DEAB9.4020308@lakeweb.com>...
> > Alex Terrell wrote:
> > >
> > > It can be wasted at in resistors, or the heat of a generator can be
> > > wasted. Most generators can't be just turned-off at night. Even if
> > > they are, a huge amount of thermal energy is wasted.
> >
> > You will have to back this up. The load is well understood by the
> > production industry. They don't let 'waste' go by easily.
> >
> No concrete data, but demand falls by about 1/3 at night. So some
> generators are turned off. As we (UK) don't have much hydro (apart
> from the pumped storage) this means shutting down therm stations. This
> certainly wastes thermal heat, and creates strain on the boilers,
> which would prefer a constant temperature.

In my experience with petrochemical units (no, I'm not a power systems
engineer), those units can be turned down to about 50% of their nameplate
capacity without causing big problems. I suspect that many power stations
can say the same. Thus, you would tend to turn them down at night, and hold
temperatures constant, but run less fuel gas and steam through them.

>
> Sorry, I can't quantify it. Perhaps a power systems engineer can.
>
> > However, I have nothing against EVs if you can sell'm.
> >
> In terms of overall efficency:
>
> Electricity generated in station at 45%, transmitted, placed in
> battery, consumed by electric engine;
>
> versus
>
> Fuel shipped to refinery, refined, tanked to petrol station, placed in
> car, converted to motion at ~25%;

Somehow, I doubt that the petroleum fuel efficiency is this low. There is a
LOT of heat integration in modern refineries, meaning that their thermal
efficiency is pretty good (no, I don't have actual numbers). In addition to
that, fuel must still be handled, distributed, treated, etc., before going
to the electrical generator, so you can't assume 100% efficiency for the
distribution of fuel to the electrical generator.

>
> I think the former is slightly ahead, but not much. From a European
> end user perspective, EVs will wins hand down financially because of
> the current tax regime. (With fuel cell powered cars, the two options
> would come out broadly level, at which point car batteries can be used
> as energy sinks)
>
> From an environmental / social perspective, some points about the EV
> scenario:
>
> - No extra infrastructure needed, since extra demand is night time (at
> least till EVs become the majority)
> - Significantly reduced local pollution (against increase power
> station output)
> - Power stations tend to be cleaner thsn cars (better scrubbers)
> - Some, and increasing so more, of our generation will be CO2 free
> - electricity genration is less dependent than cars on Middle East oil

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