Re: Using nuclear power to make renewables and a hydrogen economy cost effective

From: Alex Terrell (alexterrell_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/29/04 

Date: 29 Oct 2004 13:45:36 -0700

"Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.usa> wrote in message news:<ahpgd.22396$Qs6.1718730@news20.bellglobal.com>...

> >
> > So here's the difference - I see more "green" opportunities for
> > producing electricty (wind, wave, tidal, photo-voltaic), than I do for
> > producing hydrogen (bio diesel, thermal processes).
>
> So this is all about your limited viewpoint??

No, it's about the view point of lots of individuals who contribute to
this discussion. Many individuals seem to know quite a lot. Others,
like yourself, can't tolerate anyone expressing an opinion which
doesn't agree with their "one issue crank" point of view.

What I've done is try to see what we're disagreeing about. I repeat
for your benefit: I see more "green" opportunities for producing
electricty (wind, wave, tidal, photo-voltaic), than I do for producing
hydrogen (bio diesel, thermal processes). You seem to believe the
reverse.

Is that correct?
>
> > Electricty will be
> > cheaper than hydrogen from non fossil sources, and it's much more
> > useful for anything except heating.
>
> False. Electricity stored in batteries is VERY poor use of fuel and highly
> inefficient. They have ALWAYS failed ot make the 'all electric car'. Hydogen
> give a good balance of quick fueling, efficiency and range. Well, so would
> alcohol, etc but..

Firstly, I haven't mentioned batteries at this point. But now you
mention it; Power station fossil fuel to transmission to battery to
motor; comes to a similar efficiency as fossil fuel to internal
combustion engine.
>
> > Ideally it would be nice to match demand and supply of both, to
> > minimise convesion one way or the other.
>
> You may need to produce a certain amount of electricity to fully generate
> the hydrogen (coal to hydrogen conversion with mineral sequestration ) to
> get enough 'process heat' to balance the thermodynamics.
>
Your digressing.
> >
> > Given this, we would want to do as much as possible with electricity,
> > rather than hydrogen. Hence the merits of plug-in hybrids.
>
> Do you have another tune? You really are kind of boring.
>
A three year old would find calculus boring. It's way beyond them.
They might say "can we play something else. You really are kind of
boring"
> >
> > Nuclear is interesting, because it can be used to produce either
> > electricty, or hydrogen, and so can act as a balance. That was the
> > subject of this thread. Whether nuclear is "green" is a different
> > debate all together.
> >
> > Another interesting area of storage are flywheels. These cannot
> > outperform batteries in terms of storage, but as far as I'm aware, no
> > one has yet analysed flywheels based on carbon nanotubes.
>
> That may change, but for now the nanotube cables are just too expensive for
> anything like that.
>
The fact that nanotube "cables" don't exist is a more fundamental
problem. We can have no idea yet about their price. As for
performance, I see some figures around 11 KWhrs / kg.

> >>
> >>> Heating and long haul transportation are tricky. Currently, gas
> >>> heating is about 1/5th the cost of electricity.
> >>
> >> So you expect the economics to favor hydrogen?
> >
> > If we move to renewables and nuclear, I'd expect electricity costs to
> > rise slightly compared to today. I'd expect hydrogen, or renewable
> > hydrocarbons, to be more expensive than natural gas or oil is today.
> > The only area that impacts is heating and long haul-transport, because
> > just about everything else can be done better with electricity.
>
> Well, as long as you admit that this is just your ignorant opinion, no
> problem. \
>
Do you have an alternative ignorant opinion or can you only throw
insults?
> >
> >> One note. Where electricity
> >> can be used with heat pumps and natural heat storage systems, the
> >> 'Coefficeint of performance' can make more heat from electicity than
> >> from direct burning.
> >
> > Yes. It's still not enough to make electricity competetive when it's 5
> > times the price of natural gas. It could be competitve when it's only
> > double the price.
>
> Yes. When it is more expensive, you can surely say that it is more
> expensive. But on what basis do you say that it will be more expensive? Oh..
> right. Don't tell me. It is your foggy crystal ball again.
>
There you go again - no counter arguments, no reasoned point of view,
so just throw an insult. You do come across as an above average
intelligence, rather sad pathetic individual.
> >
> > As for driving - it's a no brainer.
>
> In your case, that seems to be true.
>
> > The first 50km is way cheaper
> > using electricity.
>
> Not after conversion to electricity and then the losses in storage batteries
> and so on. Electric power has never made even a credible start. Check out
> the EV1 fiasco.

Check out Toyota Prius. Citroen Dynavolt is perhaps more relevant as a
starter.

Or look at the fuel costs - Petrol: ~€0.12/mile, Electricity:
<€0.01/mile
>
Snip zero content statements.
> >
> >> You are really talking about an advanced electric car. They just are
> >> not practical to store enough energy in batteries even if you use
> >> hybrid energy recovery methods to cut down on the load.
> >
> > Check the context and you'll see that statement is wrong. We are
> > talking hybrids, not purely battery powered cars.
>
> Without the fuel powered generator it is not a 'hybrid' ( combination of
> electric and fuel ) but an electric with partial braking force recovery.
> Please try to understand these terms.
>
Good - you seem to understand what a hybrid is. Now check the context
and you'll see I'm talking about hybrids. You seem to want to talk
EV1, which has no relevance to this, but might give you a warm
feeling.
> >
> >> Actually, energy recovery by
> >> 'recharging' is increadibly inefficient because the batteries have
> >> limited charge rates compared to the braking energy. Hydraulic
> >> systems tend to recover more of the total energy for use in
> >> acceleration.
> >>
> > Discussed elsewhere. "Hybrid hybrids" either with battery and
> > flywheel, or perhaps with two different types of battery. Note Toyota
> > Prius doesn't seem to have a problem with regenerative braking.
>
> Learn the term 'hybrid' before using it please, to prevent futher ignorant
> misuse, and I was no talking about problems with regenerative braking but
> the ratio of braking energy collected and stored. Please rent a clue.

Either you don't know what a Toyota Prius is, or this last paragraph
is even more menaingless and out of place than the rest of your
contribution. So please, either add something useful, or go and troll
elsewhere.

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