Re: Quasiturbine - Over unity air motor ?

From: Mike (niche_at_iinet.net.au)
Date: 11/01/04 

Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:29:02 +0800

Franz Heymann wrote:

> "Mike" <niche@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> news:4185FD3C.73BCF80B@iinet.net.au...
> > Main point,
> >
> > to use the heat you have to sink it, Carnot has things to say about
> > that. It can end up taking more work to remove the heat then
> > you get from the pressure. Or contrive the system for the highest
> > temperature differential,
> >
> > Hey - how about this, compress the exhaust from an ICE and send
> > it in tanks to the CO2 recylcers
> >
> > ;-)
>
> Since you have snipped all semblance of headers and context, I have
> not the faintest idea of what you are talking about, or to whom you
> are talking

mmm Thats strange Franz,

Comes up ok in netscape 4.8 newsreader with correct thread,

Initial Post by Sait-Hilaire, same title

Rgds

mike

>
>
> Franz
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> > Mike
> > http://niche.iinet.net.au
> >
> >
> >
> > Saint-Hilaire wrote:
> >
> > > Quasiturbine - Over unity air motor ?
> > >
> > > Bonjour,
> > >
> > > I am not sure I did express myself sufficiently
> > > on efficiency in a recent post about the
> > > "Quasiturbine and the Air Car"...
> > > (see copy of the post below).
> > >
> > > What about a system extracting some net energy
> > > from ambient air temperature ?
> > > Not obvious of course, but possible ?
> > >
> > > Compressing air produces both heat and pressure.
> > > Let assume a gas is cooled just after compression
> > > and the heat is usefully used
> > > (for example with a Quasiturbine Stirling at :
> > > http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca/QTStirling.html)
> > > Then later, make use the ambient air or lake water
> > > temperature to warm-up an isothermal expansion
> > > of that same compressed gaz
> > > (using a Quasiturbine air motor ?
> > > http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca/QTPneumatique.html),
> > > which will restitute close to the total amount of energy
> > > given initially by the compressor
> > > (this need to be carefully check (?)-
> > > there will be some losses of course).
> > > If so, this mechanical energy could be used
> > > to compress more gas, produce more heat
> > > to be removed... and so on.
> > > In such a system, the heat initially removed from the gas
> > > just after compression is "free energy" ?
> > >
> > > If the free heat removed is finally
> > > absorbed by a stable chemical process,
> > > this system may produce on large scale a net
> > > atmosphere cooling to reverse the
> > > "réchauffement de la planète"
> > > (because the free energy has been
> > > in fact taken out of our atmosphere).
> > >
> > > From the humain usable energy point of view,
> > > such a system provides an over unity efficiency !
> > > I let you speculate on the actual
> > > (>1) efficiency value of such a system.
> > > Means and methodes to acheive that efficiency
> > > is already patented within the Quasiturbine technology...
> > >
> > > Curieux de lire vos commentaires !
> > > Meilleures salutations, Gilles
> > > www.quasiturbine.com
> > >
> > > The recent post about the
> > > "Quasiturbine and the Air Car" :
> > >
> > > "Saint-Hilaire" <saint-hilaire@promci.qc.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:1099052098.JlXmyIshfUalOuPSDW3FBw@teranews...
> > >
> > > Bonjour,
> > >
> > > 1)
> > > Compressing a gas produces both pressure and heat.
> > > Excellent reversibility can be achieve
> > > if one keeps both the pressure and the heat stored together.
> > > However, heat can be removed from the gas by cooling it
> > > (a necessity if multi-stage higher pressure is desired,
> > > and sometime heat can be usefully dispatch),
> > > and heat can be given back later, sometime from
> > > a free heat sink (ambient) during relaxation,
> > > to still produce a fairly good reversibility.
> > > For short term uses, it may be beneficial to store
> > > both the pressure (moderate) and the associated heat.
> > >
> > > 2)
> > > Storing both the pressure (moderate) with its associated heat
> > > could be appropriate for example in the case
> > > of mining pneumatic locomotive or city subway,
> > > where the pneumatic wagon could be refill every few hours,
> > > not to say partly refill from the braking energy recovery.
> > > Pneumatic remove the high voltage subway hazard,
> > > and allow better conditioning the air purity by releasing dry air,
> > > which is most suitable to reduce subway moisture.
> > > Depending of the voluntary heat lost
> > > on the ground processing pressure plant,
> > > subway gas relaxation could further cool down the ambient air,
> > > a great advantage on summer !
> > >
> > > 3)
> > > When a gas at room temperature expands,
> > > it produces energy in two forms : pressure work and cooling,
> > > which energies add up to quite an excellent reversibility.
> > > Most people ignore or discard the powerful
> > > adiabatic cooling, but it could be of direct interest,
> > > like in conditioning the subway air.
> > > What is nice about expanding compressed gas
> > > is that the cooling adiabatic energy can be converted
> > > into mechanical work providing some heat can be given
> > > to the gas during relaxation (almost magic conversion !).
> > > If this heat can come from a free ambient heat sink,
> > > then the isothermal expansion acts locally
> > > as a sort of mechanical energy amplifier,
> > > while total energy is conserved considering earlier compression.
> > > If added heat is coming from the system (boiler...)
> > > then, isothermal expansion is a good way to
> > > increase the specific power density of the machine,
> > > but does not provide a net additional energy output !
> > >
> > > 4)
> > > But keeping the heat (higher temperature)
> > > in an air tank reduces it energy capacity ?
> > > This would insure a good reversibility all the time,
> > > but of course the isothermal mechanical amplification
> > > will not be as easy (impossible with ambient heat),
> > > which would in fact reduce the local mechanical work
> > > done by the same reservoir capacity.
> > > If higher level heat is still apply to the gas relaxation,
> > > then the same mechanical work could be extracted
> > > (but with some residual heat lost at exhaust).
> > >
> > > 5)
> > > The energy density comparison are distorted unfairly (by
> ignorance)
> > > by those who keep stating that gasoline contains 9000 w-h/liter.
> > > The truth is that to get such an amount of energy
> > > from a full car tank of gasoline,
> > > one need to have about 2 tons of oxygen !
> > > Lets assume you carry onboard the needed oxygen,
> > > then your real power density (in weight and volume)
> > > will fall to what they call ridicule low level...
> > > Not only do we steal the petrol product from our underground
> reserve,
> > > but our vehicle further steal the air underway from our
> atmosphere.
> > > Should we oppose petrol unfair results
> > > to the alternative energy solutions !
> > > This is of course not a fair way to describe the true reality...
> > > Similarly, we should stop referring to IC engine peak 30 %
> efficiency
> > > which is far from average in use engine efficiency,
> > > where most vehicle hardly reach 9 % efficiency form fuel to wheel
> > > (which is in the range of many interesting alternatives).
> > >
> > > 6)
> > > Energy alternatives are apparently loosing against
> > > unfair petroleum pumping and free atmospheric air oxidation,
> > > so is the planet loosing.
> > > It is always easier for someone to make a good living
> > > out of stolen money, than out of it honest earning,
> > > until such a time that he imprisons himself...
> > > This is what we are all doing by using underground petroleum.
> > >
> > > Please, keep-up innovating for the future, if not for the
> present...
> > >
> > > Meilleures salutations, Gilles
> > > www.quasiturbine.com
> >

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