Re: Solar-hydrogen home power system?

From: Ray Drouillard (cosmicpam2_at_comcast.net)
Date: 11/07/04 

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:33:26 -0500

"Don W." <dNOSPAMwiddersAThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kZWdnWvEkf_0whDcRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> "Ray Drouillard" <cosmicpam2@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:2v4kf4F2had9lU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Alex Terrell" <alexterrell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:d81e59c9.0411060623.55ad512b@posting.google.com...
> > > Dan Bloomquist <EXTRApublic21@lakeweb.com> wrote in message
> > news:<417936AA.2010001@lakeweb.com>...
> > > The only justifications for turning electricty into hydrogen with
> > > electrolysis are if the marginal cost and value of electricity are
> > > negligible. Currently, this only happens if you have renewable
> > > electricity which can't be turned off or sold elsewhere. For
example,
> > > if you have an island powered by wind turbines.
> >
>
> There is no justification for turning electricity into hydrogen with
> electrolysis, so no one does that. If there ever was such a thing as
> 'negligibly valuable' or 'marginal cost' electricity in great
quantity,
> then pumped storage or some form of energy-intensive industry would be
a
> reasonable use of the 'excess' electricity.
>
> > Or photovoltaics or some forms of hydroelectric (as I mentioned).
>
> PV electricity is anything but cheap!

Once you own the panels, the marginal cost is essentially zero. That's
what Alex was saying.

(Does anyone need a lecture about the definition of "marginal cost"?)

>
> >
> > The problem with battery-powered electric vehicles is that they have
a
> > short range. That is fine for some uses, but totally inadequate for
> > others.
> >
> > Also, there is the issue of battery cost and longevity.
> >
> > Thirdly, a power plant needs to be reasonably close to the users of
the
> > power. Even with the best high voltage DC transmission lines, there
are
> > losses. If, however, you plan on using the nuke plant to split
water
> > into hydrogen, you can build it somewhere far from people and
Greenpeace
> > picketers.
> >
> Transportation is one of the reasons hydrogen is not practical.
Hydrogen
> is too fluffy to easily and cheaply transport in huge quantities.
> Electricity is much easier to transport over great distances and it is
> routinely transported over great distances in huge quantities.

I partially agree. H2 is difficult to store and transport. I have to
wonder what the volume storage density of the entire system (H2 tank and
fuel cell) is compared to a standard battery. For small quantities of
work stored, a battery is going to be more cost effective. At some
point, H2/fuel cell solution is going to be better. If that wasn't the
case, the shuttle would be lifting big batteries instead of fuel cells.

>
> The major advantage of EVs is that we pay less taxes on electricity
than on
> gasoline or diesel.

For now. Maybe not for long. They are talking about putting GPS
receivers in our cars and charging us by the mile. At that point, it
won't make a difference what you use to fuel your car. At that point,
fuel efficient cars will lose some of their economic advantage because
you'll be paying your road taxes by the mile rather than by the gallon.

> In this low-tax environment, electric vehicles can
> actually make sense (especially if the cost of the vehicle is
partially
> underwritten by government subsidies to which I'm philosophically
opposed.)

If the government pays for the car, you and I are still paying for the
car. It might give an individual an incentive to get an electric car,
but it is not a solution that will cause an economic gain for the
system.

The government is good at this kind of sleight-of-hand.

Ray Drouillard

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