Re: Solar-hydrogen home power system?

From: Don W. (dNOSPAMwiddersAThotmail.com)
Date: 11/07/04 

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 04:22:57 -0800

"Ray Drouillard" <cosmicpam2@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2v63p4F2hivebU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Don W." <dNOSPAMwiddersAThotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:y9WdnebiUZMvWhDcRVn-qg@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Ray Drouillard" <cosmicpam2@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:2v5c7vF2g5lbdU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > "Don W." <dNOSPAMwiddersAThotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:kZWdnWvEkf_0whDcRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> >>> "Ray Drouillard" <cosmicpam2@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:2v4kf4F2had9lU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >>>
> >>> There is no justification for turning electricity into
> >>> hydrogen with electrolysis, so no one does that. If
> >>> there ever was such a thing as 'negligibly valuable'
> >>> or 'marginal cost' electricity in great quantity, then
> >>> pumped storage or some form of energy-intensive
> >>> industry would be a reasonable use of the 'excess'
> >>> electricity.
> >>>
> >>>> Or photovoltaics or some forms of hydroelectric
> >>>> (as I mentioned).
> >>>
> >>> PV electricity is anything but cheap!
> > >
> > > Once you own the panels, the marginal cost is essentially
> > > zero. That's what Alex was saying.
> >
> > I see. Sort of like after you pay for a newspaper or a
> > car or groceries or a house, then the cost is essentially
> > zero? I respectfully disagree.
> > Forever after the purchase of a solar system (more than
> > just panels), there is a 'lost opportunity' cost because the
> > money spent on the system is no longer available to spend
> > on other things (like electricity!) Some people seem to
> > think that the cost should not be amortized if they pay cash
> > instead of borrowing money for the purchase. This makes
> > for a senseless model because the money they paid for the
> > system could be earning interest if not spent.
> >
> > >
> > > (Does anyone need a lecture about the definition of
> > > "marginal cost"?)
> > >
> > Perhaps I do. In classical economics "marginal cost" is the
> > difference in total cost per widgit between production of a
> > few widgits and production of a lot of widgits. How does
> > this apply here (or are you using some other definition of
> > "marginal cost"?)
>
> Similar.
>
> You have already paid for a system that will provide ten
> kilowatts under most conditions. Right now, you are only
> consuming five kilowatts. Therefore, the panels are only
> producing five kilowatts.
>
> The marginal cost of loading the panels enough to get ten
> kilowatts is essentially zero. You have enough sunlight
> to generate 10 KW, but are only using 5 KW. Increasing
> your usage to 10 KW (in other words, generating another
> 5 KW) isn't going to cost you anything.
>
> His argument is that, if the 5 KW is there for the using, why
> not use it to split hydrogen?

*sheepish grin* OK, I get it now. My argument would be it makes more
sense to keep a 5 kW machine in the garage busy producing some useful
product than to make hydrogen and here are my reasons:

1. The infrastructure for making, storing and using hydrogen is
extraordinarily expensive. It would be more economical to buy a 5 kW
refrigeration unit to turn the garage into cold storage than to purchase
and maintain an electrolyzer, hydrogen storage system and fuel cell or
convert the family auto to run on hydrogen.

2. Hydrogen is inefficient energy storage. The fact that Alex wants to
store the energy implies he has some need for the energy. It is more
efficient to use the energy directly (or store it in good batteries) than
to produce, store and use hydrogen.

3. If he really can't use his 5 kW of surplus electricity, it's likely his
neighbor can use it or that someone nearby is willing to pay for the cold
storage in his garage or for some product the 5 kW can be used to make.
This is the same story as any scenario where you have electricity -- the
electricity has far greater value than the hydrogen produced by the
electricity through electrolysis.

> >>> Transportation is one of the reasons hydrogen is not practical.
> >>> Hydrogen is too fluffy to easily and cheaply transport in huge
> >>> quantities. Electricity is much easier to transport over great
> >>> distances and it is routinely transported over great distances
> >>> in huge quantities.
> > >
> > > I partially agree. H2 is difficult to store and transport. I have
> > > to wonder what the volume storage density of the entire system
> > > (H2 tank and fuel cell) is compared to a standard battery. For
> > > small quantities of work stored, a battery is going to be more
> > > cost effective. At some point, H2/fuel cell solution is going to
> > > be better. If that wasn't the case, the shuttle would be lifting
> > > big batteries instead of fuel cells.
> > >
> >
> > Sounds like a bigger leap in logic than I'm willing to make. If I
> > understand you correctly, you're saying that if one is storing a big
> > enough quantity of energy, then hydrogen is a better way to store
> > then energy than batteries and evidence of this 'fact' is the fuel
> > cells on the shuttle? Please help me understand that logic or help
> > me understand my misunderstanding.
>
> I'm not using the shuttle as evidence, but as an example of a system
> that has some engineering behind it, and that does, in fact, use
> hydrogen fuel cells.
>
> Anyhow, I'm not all that in love with hydrogen as a transportation fuel.
> It has its good points, but the storage situation is the biggest issue.
> Actually, the cost of the stuff is the biggest issue right now, and
> storage is the technical hurtle that will have to be overcome if we do
> manage to make the stuff cheaply.
>

Storage is a big issue. Safety is a big issue. Cost of to make, store and
use the stuff is a big issue. In my view, the biggest issue is the energy
cost because for most people that is the reason for using hydrogen in the
first place. Finding the energy to make hydrogen is going to be real tough
if you take fossil fuels out of the picture.

> > > > The major advantage of EVs is that we pay less taxes on
> > > > electricity than on gasoline or diesel.
> > >
> > > For now. Maybe not for long. They are talking about putting
> > > GPS receivers in our cars and charging us by the mile. At that
> > > point, it won't make a difference what you use to fuel your car.
> > > At that point, fuel efficient cars will lose some of their economic
> > > advantage because you'll be paying your road taxes by the mile
> > > rather than by the gallon.
> > >
> > This is the first I've heard of such talk, but please be assured if
> > there ever is any such tax, it will be in addition to whatever tax
> > is paid on fuel. Fuel taxes are the most successful taxes (from
> > the perspective of governments) in all of history and it is more
> > likely fuel taxes will increase than decrease.
>
> Really? You haven't heard of that scheme? The promoters are promising
> that they can afford to lower fuel taxes if they go to that scheme. The
> privacy advocates are all up in arms. The government is considering it
> because they are losing tax revinues because fuel-efficient cars are
> burning less gas. The proposition originates, of course, on the west
> coast.

Really. I hadn't heard. The promoters must be politicians and politicians
will always promise they can afford to lower taxes if you let them take
money in another way. Trusting in the promise of a politician is like
putting your money in a bank (or union coffer, or retirement fund) run by
organized crime. No tax revenue is being lost because fuel-efficient cars
are burning less gas on the West Coast or anywhere else in the U.S. We
aren't burning any less fuel over-all because SUVs more than make up for
hybrids.

>
> OK, a quick google search yielded a few URLs. I'm sure you can find
> more if you are curious.
http://www.gpsworld.com/gpsworld/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=105230
http://economics.about.com/od/taxesandeconomicgrowth/a/promileagetax2.htm
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001972174_mileagetax05m.html
http://economics.about.com/od/taxesandeconomicgrowth/a/mileage_tax.htm
>
> Anyhow, you can be sure as death and taxes that as soon as an alternate
> fuel becomes popular, it will be taxed. If they have to put a separate
> electric meter on your EV, they'll do it.
>
>
> Ray Drouillard

Yes. At this time our government is doing nothing to encourage EVs because
hydrogen is a 'solution' that is not a viable alternative to gasoline or
diesel and because automobile manufacturers wanted an end to (or at least a
temporary reprieve from) CAFE laws. EVs are not really a solution to the
fossil fuel problem any more than hydrogen, but at least EVs cost less and
are probably somewhat more efficient than running cars on hydrogen.

It's a complex web we weave and the resources invested in hydrogen research
and development are mostly wasted. A better use of resources would be to
learn, teach and encourage conservation. Less miles travelled means less
energy resources used no matter what fuel.

Don W.

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