Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

From: Alex Terrell (alexterrell_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 12/10/04 

Date: 10 Dec 2004 13:03:01 -0800

Dan Bloomquist wrote:
> alex wrote:
> > Dan Bloomquist wrote:
> >
> >>Alex Terrell wrote:
> >>
>
> Hope you don't mind that I snipped the above. It was pretty mangled.
By
> google?! Is that the agent you used?
>
Yes - and recently it's stopped working for posting, so I'm using the
Google beta version, which is not as good as the old version. Any
recommendations?

snip to shorten.
>
> If your 'turbine' is 60% efficient it is something like GE's H System
or
> a combined cycle system. Are you sure you can purchase one of these
> things for $.40/watt???
>
60% was the figure given by "Eunome"? This seems about right for
hydrogen. Fuel cells might achieve 80%, but their capital cost is
unknown.

> >
> > So I've increased my capital costs by about 40%. Given capital
costs
> > account for most, but not all of the running costs, my average
price of
> > electricity might rise by some 30%. (3c to 4c per KWHr).
> >
> > However, I can now sell all my electricity at day time rates,
rather
> > than an average of day and night rates. This MAY be profitable,
> > depending on the exact nature of the electricity market in
question.
>
> There are 20,000 MWatts of pumped storage in this country. It is a
cheap
> and efficient method of storing energy over night. Granted, I haven't

> been through all the numbers. But at this time, I don't believe all
the
> baggage needed for the hydrogen vector can come close to competing.
>
I think the point is that if we move to nuclear / renewables, we need
some form of energy store. The candidats include:

Hydrogen, not from electrolysis, but thermal sources
Pumped storage - best where geography allows
Batteries - probably done in-vehicle at local level
Fly wheels - whilst no good for cars, large flywheels could be feasible
Intelligent demand management - will help, but not enough

One area where hydrogen seems a good bet is where the energy demand
cycle is seasonal. An Island off Germany is already planning hydrogen
storage to power the touristy summer. Amazingly the power will come
from tidal, so they need to use electrolysis.

> >>>Can it be used for domestic heating and cooking?
> >>
> >>Using hydrogen for stationary applications will never make sense.
> >>
> >
> > Using the above figures, if the choice is heating home with nuclear
> > electricity, or nuclear thermal hydrogen, thermal hydrogen might
win
> > out because of higher efficiency.
>
> Homes are heated with fuels because of the low initial cost. Ground
> water heat pumps are far more efficient than direct fuel heating.
>
> Will the cost of creating an infrastructure to deliver hydrogen to
homes
> for heating make more sense than to upgrade the heating of the home
in
> the long run?
>
Probably not. Can existing natural gas pipelines carry hydrogen?

> > You'd probably run the car on methanol or methane, which emit less
CO2
> > than normal fuel. You also use local / australian coal, which is
> > plentiful, rather than OPEC oil.
>
> Here on the North American continent, there is plenty of oil. If
nuclear
> is used, it will most likely be to process that oil. Sand oil is
running
> some $15 a barrel with methane as the feed stock. Coal as the base
stock
> is some $35 - $45 a barrel as I recall.
>
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts - Alex
>
>
> Thank you.
> Best, Dan.
>
> --
> http://lakeweb.net
> http://ReserveAnalyst.com
> No EXTRA stuff for email.
> What can you see if you can't see it all...

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