Re: Fuel Cells in a Hydrocarbon Economy


"quasarstrider" <quasarstrider@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1163646975.553177.142490@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bob Eld wrote:
I'm all for fuel cell research but we must keep in mind that fuel cells
have
been in development since 1835. Yes Virginia, 1835 not 1935, that's 171
years! You'd think by now they would have been long ago perfected, but
that
is not the case. By contrast look at the progress the internal
combustion
engine has enjoyed in far less time than that. Or, look at the gas
turbine,
water turbine, steam turbine, jet engine, diesel engine, alkaline
batteries,
lithium batteries and on and on. I'm not saying that fuel cells can't
make
it, just that there are fundamental problems that have kept them as
scientific curiosities rather than main stream power sources over these
many
years. We have been hearing for at least twenty years that I am aware of
that fuel cells are the next best thing and soon will be available for
general use, but we still wait. Yes there are some back up cell power
systems but none of these compete with diesel or gas power for that
application. Now more and more people are going to direct solar with
battery
backup eliminating fuel altogether. Given the history and the many forms
of
competition, fuel cells have a rough road to hoe. I suspect they are
somewhat of a dark horse to bet on at this late date. I hope I'm wrong.

Bob,

The first steam engine was allegedly made in the 1st century AD by Hero
of Alexandria:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_Engine

However the Watt steam engine, the real deal, was developed in 1765:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt_steam_engine

So it took some 1600 years for the steam engine to be worthwhile.

Fuel cells are presently still too expensive. Hydrogen storage is
pathetically low density.
Yet there are some interesting things in that horizon, namely the Honda
FCX 2006:
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060925FCXConcept/
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060108FCX/

- Does 100 mph (not impressive, however in some states it is against
the law to even go that fast).
- Has some 350 miles of range.
- The fuel cell does some 134 hp.
- Claims to have a vehicle energy efficiency of 60%.

Note: The tank stores 5 kg of hydrogen at 5000 PSI. 171 liters.

Some people think you can manufacture hydrogen for $3 a kg.

I still think batteries will win, but hydrogen for transportation has
seemed more fanciful before.

The Hero "engine" was never a viable engine and developed no power. In fact
there is no proof that one was ever built. Secondly from the time of Hero to
Newcommen in the 17th century, there was NO development of engines of any
kind so it is nonsense to suggest that the steam engine was in development
for 1600 years. It was not. Thirdly, I did not even mention reciprocating
steam engines in my above post. I was commenting turbine development from
the time of Parsons in the late 19th century, about 120 years. All of the
blather about hydrogen that you mention is just that, blather. There is no
commercial hardware that you can go by at anything close to a reasonable
price. They have been touting this for many years and still no reality, it's
all talk. In the mean time other competition is racing ahead. Yes you can
actually go by hybrid vehicles with batteries as that technology outpaces
fuel cells and hydrogen. Flex fuel engines burning ethanol or E85 are
becomming a reality and any diesel engine will burn bio-diesel oil. Hydrogen
is nothing but a destroyer of other forms of energy such as natural gas or
electricity, and therfore, will always suck hind tit.


.

Relevant Pages

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