Re: MPG vs MPD with Ethanol


"DB" <abc@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:8Sp1k.91$pW1.43@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Rob Dekker wrote:
"DB" <abc@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:Hii1k.14491$oA1.12623@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bob Eld wrote:
"Uncle Ben" <ben@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ceafa1b8-18d4-449d-a1ee-b31aba013ce7@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I am continually amazed at the small minds that cannot get over their
obsession with the reduced miles/gallon of ethanol.

With my converted 1999 Subaru, I get 21 MPG with 105-octane E85 at a
cost of $3.00 per gallon. That's 14 cents/mile.

With the same car, I get 25 MPG with 87-octane gasoline at a cost of
$4.20 per gallon. That's 17 cents/mile.

Now class, think hard: Which is the cheaper way to go?

Add to this the fun I'm having driving a car that now with high octane
and a modern engine control unit with automatic fuel trim has greater
torque and greater horsepower. This part comes free.

The corrosion argument against ethanol is bogus unless you are driving
an antique car.

Uncle Ben
Yep... There's already a price differential and that difference will do
nothing but grow. Ethanol has the capacity to be stable in price unless it
is dumped into the world oil market. Not so with gasoline. It goes up faster
than they can change the pumps and will continue to do so.
<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ethanol+subsidies&btnG=Google+Search>
google: ethanol subsidies

Enjoy it while the taxpayers support you.

Even without subsidies, ethanol (even from corn) would be profitable, if ethanol was at a level plainfield, in a free market,
with gasoline.

Nice claim.

But it's not. Otherwise ethanol would not be $ 1 cheaper per gallon than gasoline (as it currently is).

Boggle.

What is boggle ?

You are welcome. With ethanol at $2.33 and gasoline RBOB at $ 3.31 the difference is double the ethanol credit (or 45ct/gallon).

I'd say, let the market do it's work. Let the mixers mix in more ethanol !
Every little bit helps (at least to keep the price from spiraling out of control).



~~~~~~~

6.5 billion gallons in 2007.

Which covers 5 % of the gasoline market...
ERoEI 1.3 so net 1.5 billion gallons.
http://www.energybulletin.net/14849.html

That is comparing apples and oranges (oil and natural gas).
Ethanol's 'low' ERoEI is there because we think it is currently cheaper to fire the distiller columns with natural gas (rather
than using biomass), and make fertilizer from natural gas (rather than using cow droppings as they do anywhere else in the
world). Once nat gas prices go up further, we can switch to biomass burning and get 1:8 ERoEI, like the Brazilians do.

Last, like I said, cite. First, welcome to the real world.....

Cite for what ? That most energy for ethanol production comes from natural gas, for distillation and fertilizer production ?
Or that you can do distillation with biomass reactors ?
Or that you can use cow droppings as fertilizer ?
Which is it that you need more info on ?


A tenth of a quad. The world demands 175 quads/year in liquid fuels.

We don't need to provide the world with 175 quads/year today.

Really! What a novel idea! So let us just hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

And also, we do not need to fix every countries' problems. Let's start with the US.

Really! So we don't, as a world, hold hands!

We just need to compensate for the loss in oil supply (3 % annual decline), while we convert our vehicles to run more efficient
(and towards electricity).

You must have missed the Hirsch report.

I did not. But did not read it all.
Fill me in : did they predict more than 3% annual decline ?


Like whistling through the graveyard.

http://lakeweb.blogspot.com/

Only if you assume that the US will not change their self-imposed oil addiction (which you might be right in actually).

Numbers, human nature. We are stuck with it until further notice...

Yes. Until we start using less of the stuff.
And we will. Either by more fuel-efficient vehicles, or by ruining our economy.
We still have a choice. But not for long.

Can someone please wake up GM ?



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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Energy Cost of Ethanol
    ... But, lesson learned, I think I'd make the ethanol nozzle incompatible with the gasoline socket. ... That would add a little to the conversion cost of an existing car. ... take off in Brazil until flex fuel came along. ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Ethanol - Brazil
    ... Specific mention was given to the oil sands in Alberta. ... mention was the great work that Brazil had been doing re ethanol from ... Way cheaper costs running your car as well. ... because it gives more HP than gasoline and burns cleaner. ...
    (rec.motorcycles.dirt)
  • Re: Methanol -- back to the future
    ... ethanol than on gasoline. ... Nearly every passenger car on the market has a 300mi tank for a reason; cutting that down on existing cars will annoy and inconvenience many consumers who've gotten used to that range, and manufacturers will have to increase tank sizes in future models to compensate. ... It's well known than ethanol improves engine performance in wide-open-throttle conditions; towing a boat 10mph faster up a steep hill is a common example -- but there's a new risk of damaging other components that were sized/rated based on the lower "full" engine output from running on gasoline. ...
    (sci.energy)
  • For those with gasoline powered boats
    ... IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR BOATS WITH GASOLINE ENGINES ... ETHANOL-BLENDED GASOLINE AND YOUR BOAT ... Ethanol is primarily alcohol, and for years we have been ... advised not to use dry gas as an additive in marine fuel systems. ...
    (rec.boats)
  • Re: For those with gasoline powered boats
    ... IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR BOATS WITH GASOLINE ENGINES ... ETHANOL-BLENDED GASOLINE AND YOUR BOAT ... Ethanol is primarily alcohol, and for years we have been ... advised not to use dry gas as an additive in marine fuel systems. ...
    (rec.boats)