Re: MPG vs MPD with Ethanol

On Jun 5, 10:54 pm, DB <a...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Rob Dekker wrote:
"DB" <a...@xxxxxxxx> wrote in messagenews:z6D1k.2552$fc.1654@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Rob Dekker wrote:
"DB" <a...@xxxxxxxx> wrote in messagenews:wny1k.21486$mM.562@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Rob Dekker wrote:
You are welcome. With ethanol at $2.33 and gasoline RBOB at $ 3.31 the difference is double the ethanol credit (or
45ct/gallon).
first google hit:
http://zfacts.com/p/63.html

Where did you get your numbers?
I don't know where these guys get their numbers. Only the 51ct/gallon blenders credit (scheduled to be reduced) is a direct
ethanol subsidy.
Just one.

, although that goes to the oil companies (not ethanol producers) !!
Not relevant.

It's supposed to increase incentive by blenders to mix in ethanol.
But it seems that blenders (oil companies) figured out that by collectively NOT blending in more ethanol, they keep the ethanol
price low. So they make extra profit : first from the price spread ($1/gallon) and then they get an additional 51 cts credit from
the government.
Cite?

No cite. This is my theory.

Really!?

Do you have any other theory to explain that wholesale ethanol is $2.30 now (yep it went down again) and wholesale gasoline RBOB is
$3.30 ?

I don't theorize without bases, I do research and crunch numbers. This
is not alt.energy.

At that $2.30 * 125e3 btu / 85e3btu makes it $3.38. So, it is still not
cheaper, even with this unusual spread.

That dollar per gallon goes somewhere... At best it reduces the price of gas at the pump. At worst it goes to oil companies'
profits.

Evil oil companies. How dare they sell us what we demand!

End result is that ethanol is not used as much as it could, end-user pays more, and profits + credit go to oil companies. Great
system huh ?
We import ethanol, so I don't know where you get this.

How much do we import ?

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Content.asp?ContentID=221641

For the other numbers mentioned :
Any corn subsidy goes to all corn producers (farmers), regardless of where the corn goes.
They did the math. Your logic is non sequitur.

And I don't understand the $3.6 'extra payed at the pump'. What is that and who receives it ?
There were three links there. If you are going to challenge the first link you should have followed the supporting links.

The numbers say we should have started fixing this decades ago. It will be too little too late from here.
And arguing the price of ethanol is just whistling through the graveyard.

If it's whistling through the graveyard, then why are you complaining about these subsidies to me ?

Nice try, but I'm not complaining. I couldn't care less about the
subsidies. What I do care about is the constant distraction all this
causes. Keeps peoples heads in the sand....

As I already mentioned, I'm all for abolishing these subsidies.
Once again, at best it results in a reduction in price at the pump, at worst it goes to oil company profits.

Reduce the subsidy and the price goes down? Boggle. Evil oil companies...

None of it goes to ethanol producers (who are not doing so well with $6/bushel corn in and $2.30/gallon ethanol out).

Well duh! This is about the wealth of the cooperate farmer. Where have
you been?

The bigger job is to get oil production and ethanol production at a level playing field, and not controlled by oil companies (as is
currently the case).

Where do you get this stuff?

I notice your equalization step, multiplying the price of ethanol by
the ratio of the energy densities. This is misleading. The energy
densities you are using are INPUT energies to your car; the useful
OUTPUT energy of your car is this multiplied by an EFFICIENCY factor.
And the burning efficiency of ethanol is higher than that of
gasoline. That is why the mpg penalty is less than the difference in
energy densities in the inputs.

My figures are not yet final, but close: mpg on E0 is 25 mpg in
suburban driving. With E85, 21 mpg. Ratio of outputs = 25/21 =
1.19. Ratio of inputs = 125/85 = 1.47.

Ben
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: MPG vs MPD with Ethanol
    ... But it seems that blenders (oil companies) figured out that by collectively NOT blending in more ethanol, they keep the ethanol price low. ... Any corn subsidy goes to all corn producers, regardless of where the corn goes. ...
    (sci.energy)
  • Re: MPG vs MPD with Ethanol
    ... But it seems that blenders (oil companies) figured out that by collectively NOT blending in more ethanol, ... first from the price spread and then they get an additional 51 cts credit from ... Any corn subsidy goes to all corn producers, regardless of where the corn goes. ...
    (sci.energy)
  • Re: {OT:} Crude oil prices down $0.65 a barrel
    ... When crude oil prices go up, ... it is illegal to increase the price at the ... They ALL run on Ethanol. ... And, I am sure, that if you were running the oil companies, you would go ...
    (alt.autos.toyota)
  • Re: Energy Cost of Ethanol
    ... If you Google on 'energy from ethanol' you'll get a lot of data. ... viable farmland as it raised the price of groceries. ... is a choice of a car that can only run on gasoline, ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Gold Soaring
    ... goods" appliances that seem to have gone through the roof lately. ... relationship between relative value of the $US and the price of foreign ... know what a joke ethanol is. ... I wasn't aware that corn and soybean farmers were the experts in future ...
    (rec.collecting.coins)