Re: NASA-JPL May Have Cooked Their Own Goose!

From: Carsten Troelsgaard (carsten.troelsgaard_at_mail.dk)
Date: 09/15/04 

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:22:38 +0200

"Jonathan" <jon@write.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:yLKdnTR3j4rSDNrcRVn-sw@giganews.com...
>
> "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> news:41468529$0$172$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> >
> > "Jonathan" <jon@write.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:-u2dncd8r9NI39vcRVn-vw@giganews.com...
> > >
> > > "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > > news:4145ac95$0$255$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk...
> > > >
> > > > "Jonathan" <jon@write.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> > > news:RfOdnWGvKIW6YdncRVn-rw@giganews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > > > > news:4141afbc$0$254$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jonathan" <jon@write.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> > > > > news:WOSdndAM_M_dj9zcRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
> > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It's not an impact crater, it's a thermal spring.
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy your new discovery.
> > >
> > >
> > > This was posted today by Ron, full article below.
> >
> > Snip article
> >
> > Does that mean that the fractured blocks are not fractured blocks but stromatolitic
> bioherms as you
> > suggest.
>
>
> The article shows just what they intend to look for, which indicates
> what they think is there. If you look carefully at the margins between
> the blocks, they always appear as mud. Just as in the mudpot photos
> I posted. It's water bubbling up from below or flowing down the
> crater wall that causes the fractured appearance. There are many
> pics showing small streams flowing down the crater wall creating
> the margins between the rocks.

You are 100% off on the geological aspects.

> Let's be clear about what

geology is.

> I think that's what we're seeing for a whole host of reasons.
> The perfectly uniform layering is a big clue. Such regularity
> is a common feature of biological systems.

Wrong. It does not exclude biological systems.

> A non-living system
> has large elements of randomness

According to ...? Complexity-science?
You used to take randomness as a 'complexity-science' proof of life. Your or your science are
loosing credibillity.

> that is completely missing
> at Meridiani.

It's positive that you acknowledge that. The way you interpret it is way off.

> Of course the spheres is another. The spectra showing iron carbonate
> and a signature identical to a ....hematic chert stromatolites...
> is another big clue.

No it does not, acording to a previous objection. Did you google 'Mossbauer'?

> The unusual chemistry found at the site. Not just large
> amounts of sulfates, but bromine and an extremely high
> amount of chlorine, and the chlorine level increases as they
> move lower into the crater. All are common to living
> hot spring systems.

They are even more common to what you would expect from an evaporite. Goggle and ponder.

> On earth, iron deposition is generally associated with bacteria
> that is the source of the iron depositions. Meridiani is completely
> covered in ....iron depositions...as is much of Mars.
> Mars is flippin RED because of ....

iron, as far as you know.

> bacteria....depositing iron
> everywhere and in everything.

Could be so, but you don't know.

> Also the hematite found at Meridiani is generally formed
> in hot water. A fact Nasa has religiously excludes whenever
> talking about the Meridiani hematite.

The observation could be physical/chemical in nature.

> Hydrothermal systems are not just an ideal environment for
> life, they are the ....most ideal...one can find.

Possibly. Your consept of a hydrothermal system at Meridiani is still OT, geologically speaking.

> The context
> fits precisely,

Maybe, but you showed that you don't know how.

> the observations fit precisely,

Definatly not your observation.

> the spectra
> fits precisely.

Do the google

> I mean, come on! If bacteria is NOT involved
> in Meridiani it would require proof, an alternative explanation.
> Not the other way around.

If you acknowledge my upper hand on the geological aspects or accept my objections above, you no
longer have a foundation to say that.

snip

> And guess what his specialty is, hot springs and stromatolites.

Can you provide a reference to a source that claims that the Meridiani is hydrothermal in origin. It
may be so in a way very different from what you imagine, but so far I only recall an environmental
assessment as being something 'in the neighbourhood of' evaporitic (no source provided). What did
the initial environtal assessment as fluvial tell you?

> If you want a true authority on this subject, read his papers
> at the link below. You'll 'see' Meridiani in almost all his
> writings.

Jonathan, 'see' is a prerequisit, but does not suffice in this group. Thank you for offering me a
couple of hundred pages to read should I have nothing better to do. A random snip:

Farmer, J. and D.J. DesMarais. 1999. Exploring for a record of ancient martian life. Journal of
Geophysical Research-Planets 104: (E11) 26,977-26,995.

quote
Some small-channel systems on the edges of chaotic terrains

possess amphitheater-shaped head reaches with a patchy albedo

[Farmer et al ., 1995x; Farmer, 1996] . Accepting the possibility

of a hydrothermal origin for the chaos regions, these

sites are logical places for the formation of ancient subaerial

thermal spring sinters.

snip

Where is the resemblance to what you see in Meridiani?
And should you find SiO2
It is worth noting, however, that silica is a

common low-temperature hydrothermal and diagenetic mineral

that occurs widely as sedimentary cements, as a fracturefilling

mineral, and as vesicle fills (amygdules) in volcanic

rocks.

unquote
The statement pertain to earth chemistry.

> All the latest research involves such environments, they
> expected to find bacteria and stromatolites there long ago.

You found it for them. That pose a major problem for this discussion as you are off course in your
observation.

snip

> > Does it mean that the hole is not a crater but a thermal spring? That's what you'r
> saying and that's
> > what I relate to. How does the article support that.

You don't relate to my question.

> > You compare a mudpot with fractured blocks, but does not comment on the likenes
> between the two.
> > There is non.
>
>
> Excuse me? The only difference I see is that the Endurance mudpot
> is on the crater wall and on an angle. So it runs downhill instead
> of pooling up.

Excuse you! No way.

> > And keep yelling 'life on Mars' doesn't make you right even though it should be
> found.
>
>
> There is plenty of evidence,

you mean indications?

> and none of the observations is inconsistent with
> the view I'm trying to explain.

Wrong

> It all fits like a glove. One fact that cannot be
> escaped. The spheres CANNOT be explained by non-living processes.

Jonathan, Earth provides a welth of geological phenomena that has occupied thousands of geologists
for meny years. I don't think that you grasp how alien the environment looked upon at Mars is,
compared on the level of detail that happens now. You are free to jump onto any conclusion you
like - following your way to it is discouraging.

> Geology does not reproduce itself with such precision, and with
> identical ....non-symmetrical...unique features as the off center slash
> and single aperture.

You ignore professional objection.

> The spheres spectra is identical to life as well,

This level of proof could have been conducted from Earth without going to Mars.

> they are Proof of life
> that redefines all the other observations.

I do think that you've managed to get your headline through.

> Let's learn to accept the obvious.

When will 'you' start that process

> > > > > > Jonathan, why do you think that rec.arts.poetry wants to know?
> > > > > > Do you post mail in sci.geo.geology under the name 'Ron'?
> > > > > > Do you post mail that relates to posts in this group under the name 'Peter J
> > > Ross?'
> >
> >
> >
>
>