Re: NASA-JPL May Have Cooked Their Own Goose!

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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:57:16 -0400

"Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
news:414817f1$0$290$edfadb0f@dread14.news.tele.dk...
>
> "Jonathan" <jon@write.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:yLKdnTR3j4rSDNrcRVn-sw@giganews.com...
> >
> > "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > news:41468529$0$172$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> > >
> > > "Jonathan" <jon@write.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> > news:-u2dncd8r9NI39vcRVn-vw@giganews.com...
> > > >
> > > > "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > > > news:4145ac95$0$255$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jonathan" <jon@write.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> > > > news:RfOdnWGvKIW6YdncRVn-rw@giganews.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:4141afbc$0$254$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Jonathan" <jon@write.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> > > > > > news:WOSdndAM_M_dj9zcRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's not an impact crater, it's a thermal spring.
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy your new discovery.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This was posted today by Ron, full article below.
> > >
> > > Snip article
> > >
> > > Does that mean that the fractured blocks are not fractured blocks but
stromatolitic
> > bioherms as you
> > > suggest.
> >
> >
> > The article shows just what they intend to look for, which indicates
> > what they think is there. If you look carefully at the margins between
> > the blocks, they always appear as mud. Just as in the mudpot photos
> > I posted. It's water bubbling up from below or flowing down the
> > crater wall that causes the fractured appearance. There are many
> > pics showing small streams flowing down the crater wall creating
> > the margins between the rocks.
>
> You are 100% off on the geological aspects.

I'll respond in more detail this weekend. But be ready to
defend your statements with more than...'.no it isn't' <g>

Jonathan

s

>
> > Let's be clear about what
>
> geology is.
>
> > I think that's what we're seeing for a whole host of reasons.
> > The perfectly uniform layering is a big clue. Such regularity
> > is a common feature of biological systems.
>
> Wrong. It does not exclude biological systems.
>
> > A non-living system
> > has large elements of randomness
>
> According to ...? Complexity-science?
> You used to take randomness as a 'complexity-science' proof of life. Your or your
science are
> loosing credibillity.
>
> > that is completely missing
> > at Meridiani.
>
> It's positive that you acknowledge that. The way you interpret it is way off.
>
> > Of course the spheres is another. The spectra showing iron carbonate
> > and a signature identical to a ....hematic chert stromatolites...
> > is another big clue.
>
> No it does not, acording to a previous objection. Did you google 'Mossbauer'?
>
> > The unusual chemistry found at the site. Not just large
> > amounts of sulfates, but bromine and an extremely high
> > amount of chlorine, and the chlorine level increases as they
> > move lower into the crater. All are common to living
> > hot spring systems.
>
> They are even more common to what you would expect from an evaporite. Goggle and
ponder.
>
> > On earth, iron deposition is generally associated with bacteria
> > that is the source of the iron depositions. Meridiani is completely
> > covered in ....iron depositions...as is much of Mars.
> > Mars is flippin RED because of ....
>
> iron, as far as you know.
>
> > bacteria....depositing iron
> > everywhere and in everything.
>
> Could be so, but you don't know.
>
> > Also the hematite found at Meridiani is generally formed
> > in hot water. A fact Nasa has religiously excludes whenever
> > talking about the Meridiani hematite.
>
> The observation could be physical/chemical in nature.
>
> > Hydrothermal systems are not just an ideal environment for
> > life, they are the ....most ideal...one can find.
>
> Possibly. Your consept of a hydrothermal system at Meridiani is still OT,
geologically speaking.
>
> > The context
> > fits precisely,
>
> Maybe, but you showed that you don't know how.
>
> > the observations fit precisely,
>
> Definatly not your observation.
>
> > the spectra
> > fits precisely.
>
> Do the google
>
> > I mean, come on! If bacteria is NOT involved
> > in Meridiani it would require proof, an alternative explanation.
> > Not the other way around.
>
> If you acknowledge my upper hand on the geological aspects or accept my objections
above, you no
> longer have a foundation to say that.
>
> snip
>
> > And guess what his specialty is, hot springs and stromatolites.
>
> Can you provide a reference to a source that claims that the Meridiani is
hydrothermal in origin. It
> may be so in a way very different from what you imagine, but so far I only recall an
environmental
> assessment as being something 'in the neighbourhood of' evaporitic (no source
provided). What did
> the initial environtal assessment as fluvial tell you?
>
> > If you want a true authority on this subject, read his papers
> > at the link below. You'll 'see' Meridiani in almost all his
> > writings.
>
> Jonathan, 'see' is a prerequisit, but does not suffice in this group. Thank you for
offering me a
> couple of hundred pages to read should I have nothing better to do. A random snip:
>
> Farmer, J. and D.J. DesMarais. 1999. Exploring for a record of ancient martian life.
Journal of
> Geophysical Research-Planets 104: (E11) 26,977-26,995.
>
> quote
> Some small-channel systems on the edges of chaotic terrains
>
> possess amphitheater-shaped head reaches with a patchy albedo
>
> [Farmer et al ., 1995x; Farmer, 1996] . Accepting the possibility
>
> of a hydrothermal origin for the chaos regions, these
>
> sites are logical places for the formation of ancient subaerial
>
> thermal spring sinters.
>
> snip
>
> Where is the resemblance to what you see in Meridiani?
> And should you find SiO2
> It is worth noting, however, that silica is a
>
> common low-temperature hydrothermal and diagenetic mineral
>
> that occurs widely as sedimentary cements, as a fracturefilling
>
> mineral, and as vesicle fills (amygdules) in volcanic
>
> rocks.
>
> unquote
> The statement pertain to earth chemistry.
>
>
> > All the latest research involves such environments, they
> > expected to find bacteria and stromatolites there long ago.
>
> You found it for them. That pose a major problem for this discussion as you are off
course in your
> observation.
>
> snip
>
> > > Does it mean that the hole is not a crater but a thermal spring? That's what
you'r
> > saying and that's
> > > what I relate to. How does the article support that.
>
> You don't relate to my question.
>
> > > You compare a mudpot with fractured blocks, but does not comment on the likenes
> > between the two.
> > > There is non.
> >
> >
> > Excuse me? The only difference I see is that the Endurance mudpot
> > is on the crater wall and on an angle. So it runs downhill instead
> > of pooling up.
>
> Excuse you! No way.
>
> > > And keep yelling 'life on Mars' doesn't make you right even though it should be
> > found.
> >
> >
> > There is plenty of evidence,
>
> you mean indications?
>
> > and none of the observations is inconsistent with
> > the view I'm trying to explain.
>
> Wrong
>
> > It all fits like a glove. One fact that cannot be
> > escaped. The spheres CANNOT be explained by non-living processes.
>
> Jonathan, Earth provides a welth of geological phenomena that has occupied thousands
of geologists
> for meny years. I don't think that you grasp how alien the environment looked upon
at Mars is,
> compared on the level of detail that happens now. You are free to jump onto any
conclusion you
> like - following your way to it is discouraging.
>
> > Geology does not reproduce itself with such precision, and with
> > identical ....non-symmetrical...unique features as the off center slash
> > and single aperture.
>
> You ignore professional objection.
>
> > The spheres spectra is identical to life as well,
>
> This level of proof could have been conducted from Earth without going to Mars.
>
> > they are Proof of life
> > that redefines all the other observations.
>
> I do think that you've managed to get your headline through.
>
> > Let's learn to accept the obvious.
>
> When will 'you' start that process
>
> > > > > > > Jonathan, why do you think that rec.arts.poetry wants to know?
> > > > > > > Do you post mail in sci.geo.geology under the name 'Ron'?
> > > > > > > Do you post mail that relates to posts in this group under the name
'Peter J
> > > > Ross?'
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

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