Re: Question about an alternate abiotic origin of Martian "blueberries"

From: Carsten Troelsgaard (carsten.troelsgaard_at_mail.dk)
Date: 12/06/04 

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 14:25:51 +0100

"jonathan" <Write@Instead.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:41b32f5d_4@127.0.0.1...
>
> "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> news:41b2f44a$0$149$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> >
> > "jonathan" <Write@Instead.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:41b1a2a1$1_4@127.0.0.1...
> > >
> > > "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > > news:41b15f2a$0$126$edfadb0f@dread14.news.tele.dk...

snip

> To quote Nasa's leading astrobiologist
>
> "Indeed, given the intense impact and volcanic
> activity that characterized the planet at this time, the development
> of long-lived hydrothermal systems was likely widespread-
> duplicating many of the important conditions that are thought
> to have given rise to life on Earth (Farmer 1996)."
> http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/marspolarsci.pdf

Your source is four years old.
It turned out that the Meridiani is a sedimentary environment. What about 'long-lived hydrothermal
systems' has actuality for a discussion of the Meridiani?

> Which means the context is one ideal for development
> of the simplest type of life on earth. Which is thought
> to be bacteria. And anaerobic bacteria tends to leave
> behind lots of iron and sulfates. Also they tend to
> form laminated ...sedimentary...structures full of
> spherical shapes.

You've been told that you can forget lamination as indication of life in
the present circumstances, and that considering the spheres as macrofossils is way out of line.

> The context is clearly habitable for life, that is
> no longer in dispute.

It cannot be ruled out

snip

> The quote says nothing except for future expectations.

The expectations turned out not to come true.

> There is nothing inconsistent about finely laminated
> sedimentary rocks and stromatolites. Nothing
> at all, in fact the two are often confused for
> each other.

You are the master of great confusions.

You don't understand the significanse of finding fluvial structures in the units. Do find
eqvivalents of what you talk about: fluvial structures composed of (flat) lamina with a biogen
origin. If you've hit the dictionary and translate the environment into a river and not a sea;
realize, that stream and coastal structures bear a lot of resemblance.

> Combined with the warm mineral
> rich water of hydrothermal systems and the minerals
> found there, the context is clearly favorable
> for biology.

It does still not have actuality for what's seen at the Meridiani.

> > "A close-up view of the gray hematite crystals on Mars
> > (e.g., with a microscopic imager or other camera) will
> > help distinguish petrological features such as bedding,
> > veining, or matrix structure. Veins, fracture fillings, and
> > clast or wall coatings provide common evidence of fluid
> > motion. We expect such features on Mars if the origin
> > of the gray hematite is hydrothermal."

To make it clear to you, the above is what is supposed to have been found, if the environment had
been hydrothermal. That was not found, and talking 'hydrothermal' has lost any tooth as to the
Meridiani.

> > > Then take a look at this wonderful pic
> > > http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/11/27/
> > > The ripples are clearly formed by water
> >
> > > since they are aligned
> > > in many different directions and follow the path water
> > > would take.

Do take the odd perspective if you may.

Judged on 1) a lot of sedimentary exposures, the wet environment that laied it down is very old. 2)
Lack of the general features that would have been imposed on the landscape by an active hydrosphere;
I expect that an active hydrosphere may have been long gone and left aeolean processes to form the
landscape. To turn the argumentation 180 degrees: Where are all the structures that a an active
hydrosphere would have imposed on the landscape if the lack of flowing water is a temporal glacial
disappearance? Why doesn't water under glacial conditions act like glaciers and stove away as such?
Why should gigantic but fragile megawaves be left untouched by a retreating waterfront? What kind of
ocean swell/current would in the first place create large megawaves, but not a an erosive
beach-front. Why shouldn't extensive and impressive aeolean structures be expected?

So, if you prefer the odd perspective, then start answer questions.

snip

> > > Here's the Bahamas guys
> > > http://www.theflyingcircus.com/stella_maris.html
> > > Here's Mars
> > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/119/1N138744629EFF2809P1987R0M1.JPG
> > > ............
> > >
> > > "The typical stromatolitic structure is laminated. Each lamina represents a
> horizon
> > > of former microbial biofilm or mat (Kalkowsky, 1908). Associated mineral
> > > particles (precipitates and detrital grains) are overgrown and sometimes entirely
> > > coated by microbial assemblages (Riding and Awramik, 2000). Small (mm size),
> > > spherical to oval concentrically laminated carbonate bodies or aggregates, which
> > > form in shallow tropical seas are called ooids and are known to become
> > > consolidated into rocks called oolitic limestones (oolith, Rogenstein; Kalkowsky,
> > > 1908). The genesis of ooid grains is still enigmatic. The alternative explanations
> > > are confronted along the lines of predominantly abiotic vs. biogenic origin of
> > > ooid grains and the associated carbonate precipitates."
> > > http://paleopolis.rediris.es/cg/CG2004_L03/

I understand your enthusiasm. The resemblance between the two pictures are none the less
coinsidental. I'm not going to discuss with you weather the craters are craters or sinkholes.

> > The 'perfectly uniform lamina' you refer to carry structural evidence of a fluvial
> environment. If
> > it was laminated due to bacterial film or stromatolites, we would have told you.
>
>
> The sedimentary rock extends across the plains of Meridiani
> to the horizon. This was a sea, not a river. In any event that
> does not at all contradict the notion of microbial mats.

> I don't understand why anything you've said refutes my
> post in the slightest.

Then just respect my impatience

> > > From the standpoint of geology, nothing at Meridiani
> > > 'fits nicely' with earth analogs.
> >
> > What do you know about that?
>
>
> Well. the geologists have yet to identify a single
> rock at Meridiani...

Maybe you can tell how, if the rocks doesn't have Earth analogs

> The Nasa geologists embarrassed themselves so
> badly a peer review board was rushed in to save
> the day...which they did not. And now they've
> been replaced by astrobiologists such as Dr Farmer.
>
> It's obvious that geology hasn't succeeded at all
> in explaining Meridiani... in fact the attempt was
> a fiasco for Nasa. Why do you think Nasa suddenly
> stopped giving science interpretations a few months
> back??? Because the geologists were embarrassing
> themselves and Nasa.

You are messing about in sci.geo.geology as a dog in a bowling-alley and find yourself good enough
to point out who is embarassing?

> > > From a biological
> > > perspective...everything...at Meridianis fits nicely.

It does?

> Put Nasa's very last update there instead.............
>
> "Conditions On Vast Plain on Mars Could Have Been Suitable For Life"
> http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Dec04/Science.Mars.deb.html
>
> Conditions on vast plain on Mars could have been suitable for life,
> Cornell rover scientist Squyres states in special Science issue

Right, could have been.

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