Re: Scientists discover why is the North Pole frozen

From: george of the jungle (keys_at_somewhere.not.here)
Date: 02/26/05 

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:39:18 -1000

On 25 Feb 2005 23:42:26 -0800, "Daryl Krupa" <icycalmca@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>george of the jungle wrote:
>> On 25 Feb 2005 16:15:02 -0800, "Daryl Krupa" <icycalmca@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
><snip>
>> >> By the way the THC is cranking this winter and Europe was warm
>until
>> >> recently but areas south of Siberia have suffered from brutal
>cold.
>> >
>> > Have you noticed if that situation has affected the
>> >curvature of number of Rossby Waves to a significant
>> >amount?
>> >
>> I haven't looked at that. I have no idea. I'm a geochemist trained
>in
>> geology with a hobby of meteorology. Physical oceanography is not my
>> thing.
>
> Rossby waves are atmospheric phenomena,

Yes. That isn't news(to me). I never said I was unaware of Rossby
waves in the atmosphere. I look at 500mb maps all the time.

>http://paos.colorado.edu/~toohey/Fig_8.jpg
>http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/science_sky/96424
>but that's just a side issue. Never mind.

>> ><snip>
>> >> > AFAICS, the Pliocene ocean conveyor system and
>> >> >the swings-both-ways effect of increased Gulf Stream warming
>> >> >in the figures at the next two URLs are truly speculative, and
>> >> >neither support nor follow from the arguments, modelling, and
>> >> >evidence in Haug, et al. (2005). Too many cooks in that article?
>> >> >
>> >> >http://oceanusmag.whoi.edu/v42n2/haug-en2.html
>> >> >
>> >> >http://oceanusmag.whoi.edu/v42n2/haug-en4.html
>> >>
>> >> Those diagrams miss the subtleties of the actual currents. The
>warm
>> >> return flow runs close to S. Africa and the Gulf stream runs close
>to
>> >> N America up to the Outer Banks of NC.
>> >
>> > Yep. Again, I'll note that the diagrams do not seem to be
>> >illustrating the modern situation, but rather an imaginary
>> >former situation that was supposedly the norm before the
>> >Pleistocene.
>>
>> Yes, but it doesn't make sense because the factors controlling the
>> current positions have not changed significantly. The biggest factor
>> is the position of the continents. Geologically the Pliocene wasn't
>> that long ago.
>
> Here's a diagram of the modern THC; it doesn't differ radically
>from Haug's THC diagram; maybe Haug's version is just a product of
>artistic license. One must remember that most graphic designers
>do not have training in cartography, and seem to operate on the
>principle that "the prettier and the more dramatic the map is,
>the more authentic it is".
>
>http://paos.colorado.edu/~toohey/fig_49.jpg
>
That's the typical cartoon. It's imprecise. The salty cold water
starts mixing with Antarctic water at the equator in the Atlantic.

http://www.mercator-ocean.fr/html/mercator/index_en.html

This site has data/modeled data down to 3000m.

>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >> >-----------------------------------------------------
>> >> >[slightly modified to remove ref's to Figures, etc.]
>> >> >
>> >> >news and views
>> >> >
>> >> >Nature 433, 809 - 810 (24 February 2005);
>> >> >doi:10.1038/433809a
>> >> >
>> >> >Climate change: Snow maker for the ice ages
>> >> >
>> >> >KATHARINA BILLUPS
>> ><snip>
>> >> >This then provides the configuration on which to build
>> >> >an ice age: late winter cooling reflects climate cooling,
>> >> >allowing snow to accumulate; late summer warming
>> >> >increases the atmosphere's potential to hold moisture and
>> >> >to load the snow gun.
>> >>
>> >> The atmosphere does not "hold moisture". The vapor pressure of
>water
>> >> is a function of temperature. It is a fundamental property of H2O.
>> >
>> > I think that she was referring to dew point, and not to
>> >vapour pressure.
>> >
>> In any region of the ocean, dew point is a function of water
>> temperature and atmospheric mixing. Obviously weather (and island
>> topography) affects it but if you know the water temp over the ocean
>> you can make a pretty good guess at the dewpoint.
>
> Right, but the warmer the air, the more water vapour it can carry,
>no?

What happens when warm air blows over ice or snow or very cold water?

>And the warmer the air mass flowing from ocean ot continent, the
>more moisture is available for precipitation, and the further that
>moisture can be carried before it all precipitates out, no?

The distance moisture travels depends on orography. Here are a few
simple examples.

http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap10/oro_rain.html

http://depts.washington.edu/qrc/research/modeling/

_g

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