Re: Fossil Records Show Biodiversity Comes and Goes

From: John Harshman (jharshman.diespamdie_at_pacbell.net)
Date: 03/16/05 

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:53:38 GMT

George wrote:

> "John Harshman" <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:o71_d.23754$OU1.3327@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>
>>George wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Richard Forrest" <richard@plesiosaur.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1110962445.923099.133400@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>George wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Richard Forrest" <richard@plesiosaur.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:1110960384.122925.75380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>albaradru wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think that too much significance is given to the periodicity of
>>>>>>>extinctions. Let the geologists and astrophysicists deal with
>>>>
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>stuff, keep the paleobiologists out of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How the hell can you tell if a mass extinction event has occured if
>>>>
>>>>you
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>don't measure the diversity of fossil organisms? Geologists and
>>>>>>astrophysicists are not taxonomists and in my experience, can't
>>>>
>>>>spot a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>fossil unless you strike them smartly between the eyes with it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Excuse me? Geologists certainly do know fossils when they see them.
>>>>
>>>>I've been on field trips with geologists on many occasions. They can't!
>>>>I've been in quarries and brick-pits full of ammonites which parties of
>>>>geologists, and few of them can spot one even when they are standing
>>>>right beside them.
>>>
>>>
>>>It's not my fault your geologist friends do know their ammonites from their
>>>pentremites. Perhaps you could explain why the standard college textbook on
>>>invertebrate paleontology was written by Moore, Lalicker, and Fischer, three
>>>of
>>>the most emminent geologists of their day.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>In fact,
>>>>>more fossils have been described by geologists than by any other
>>>>
>>>>discipline.
>>>>
>>>>WHAT? Geologists do not describe fossils. Palaontologists describe
>>>>fossils.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hmmm. I'm a geologist, and I'm published in the Journal of Paleontology:
>>>
>>>http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-abstract&issn=0022-3360&volume=074&issue=06&page=1072
>>>
>>>Maybe geologists don't describe fossils on the planet where you are from.
>>>They
>>>certainly do here. In fact, here in Kentucky and Indiana, most paleozoic
>>>invertebrates that have been described have been described by geologists. I
>>>give you the following examples:
>>>
>>>James E. Conkin
>>>Barbara Conkin
>>>William Ausich
>>>Thomas Kammer
>>>Bob Dodd
>>>Gary Lane
>>>Etc.
>>>
>>>All are emminent geologists who have made significant contributions to
>>>paleontology. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is to do a google
>>>search of these people and you will surely find numerous references to their
>>>work. By the way, in the states, paleontology is taught through the geology
>>>departments of most universities.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Perhaps you should discuss this is a real geologist before you make
>>>>
>>>>such rash
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>statements.
>>>>
>>>>I work and study with geologists.
>>>
>>>
>>>I am a geologist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I go on field trips with geologists.
>>>>I drink beer in pubs with geologists. They study rocks.
>>>
>>>
>>>If that is all that you think that we do, you don't know much about geology
>>>or
>>>geologists.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>If they find
>>>>fossils, they treat them as useful stratigraphic markers, or
>>>>interesting records of sedimentation and taphonomic processes.
>>>>Taxonomy is not part of their discipline of study, and if they find
>>>>what looks like an interesting fossil, they pass it on to me or another
>>>>palaeontologist to have a closer look.
>>>
>>>
>>>Wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>For instance, note the authors of the following paper:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-abstract&issn=0022-3360&volume=074&issue=06&page=1072
>>>>
>>>>Because the authors work in a geology department?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, and we are all three geologists.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>So what? So do many,
>>>>if not most palaeontologists. A quick search for the first author,
>>>>William Ausisch(http://www.geology.ohio-state.edu/~ausich/) shows that
>>>>he is primarily an invertebrate palaeontologist.
>>>
>>>
>>>His specialty is invertebrate paleontology. Yes that is true. It is also
>>>true
>>>that all of his degrees are in geology, and he is the former department
>>>chairman
>>>of the Geology department at Ohio State University (one of the biggest
>>>geology
>>>departments in the U.S.).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Most palaeontologists
>>>>are qualified geologists as well (it's the most common first degree),
>>>>but when they describe new taxa they ain't doing geology, they're doing
>>>>palaontology (or taxonomy if you want to be picky).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>RF
>>>
>>>
>>>Paleontology is simply a sub-discipline of geology, just like hydrogeology
>>>is.
>>>All paleontologists are geologists. All hydrogeologists are geologists.
>>>Really, I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding this
>>>simple fact.
>>>
>>
>>Because it's not true? Paleontology cuts across both geology and
>>biology. If you want to make all paleontologists into geologists by
>>definition, you could do that. Then again, if you want to make all
>>paleontologists into non-geologists by definition, you could do that
>>too. But why? This is a weird argument.
>
>
> You apparently have this notion that the only thing that paleontologists do is
> classify fossils. While there may have some truth to this in the past, this is
> simply not true today.

And you seem to have this notion that the only thing that
paleontologists do is study paleoecology. Get your head out of J.
Paleontology and read something else. In addition to the journals I've
suggested already in other posts, just look at Paleobiology.
Paleoecology is just one piece of the pattern.

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