Re: Fossil Records Show Biodiversity Comes and Goes

From: John Harshman (jharshman.diespamdie_at_pacbell.net)
Date: 03/18/05 

Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:04:53 GMT

George wrote:

> "John Harshman" <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:IBE_d.20027$Pz7.8401@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>
>>George wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"John Harshman" <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>news:vYB_d.11638$C47.5213@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>George wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"John Harshman" <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:oPo_d.24046$OU1.17168@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>George wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"John Harshman" <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:f_l_d.11486$C47.9372@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>George wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"John Harshman" <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:mvh_d.19664$Pz7.10093@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>George wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>"darthpup" <amchitka@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>news:1111068702.868751.160260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>SJ Gould published a paper in Science in the early seventies after an
>>>>>>>>>>>>exhaustive inventory of all collected fossils and showed that
>>>>>>>>>>>>diversity
>>>>>>>>>>>>is in fact random and not controlled by any correlative factor.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I seem to recall something about this. Do you have a link to this
>>>>>>>>>>>paper?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I swear he's referring to Gould's entirely data-free simulations of
>>>>>>>>>>clade shape evolution. But we'll see.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Oh God. Not that one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Actually, that paper is relevant to your claim to find some particular
>>>>>>>>pattern, which implies some kind of mechanism. Gould showed in that
>>>>>>>>paper that such patterns would appear with reasonable frequency even if
>>>>>>>>speciation and extinction were entirely stochastic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The idea I espoused about specialists being more vulnerable to extinction
>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>a new one. Moore talked about it in his 1952 treatise on invertebrate
>>>>>>>paleontology.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And that's an argument in favor of what? Are ideas good because they
>>>>>>aren't new, or are they bad because they aren't new, or is their age
>>>>>>irrelevant?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I was simply pointing out that this is an idea that has been thought about
>>>>>so
>>>>>quite some time. That's all.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ah, but what was your purpose in pointing that out? Just making
>>>>conversation?
>>>>
>>>
>>>My purpose in pointing it out was that it has been accepted for quite some
>>>time,
>>>so I don't understand your objection to it.
>>>
>>
>>Well, "thought about" and "accepted" are two quite different things.
>>Accepted on what basis? We just know it's true? It sounds nice? Or was
>>this established on the basis of rigorous tests? If so, do you have
>>citations? The Paleobiology paper you cited was one such test, which
>>seems to show an effect in crinoids -- though again, greater speciation
>>rates among the specialists compensated for the greater extinction
>>rates. What else you got?
>
>
> If it wasn't accepted, it wouldn't still be discussed at length in Moore's
> "Treatise On Invertebrate Paleontology" (which now comprises 46 volumes,
> involving the work of more than 300 authors worldwide).

Sure. If one of the authors wants to discuss something, he gets to.
That's one of the benefits of writing a Treatise volume. This comes
perilously close to "if it weren't true, they wouldn't be able to say it
in print". You need to rely a little less on arguments from authority
and more on real tests. Now, if Moore presents evidence for this claim
in the Treatise, perhaps you could discuss that. I will confess that I
have never sat down and actually read any of it, just flipped through
trying to ID species.

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