Re: Dave Keeling: Global warming expert shares 50 years of research

From: Thomas Lee Elifritz (crackpots_at_everywhere.net)
Date: 08/22/04 

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:30:44 GMT

August 21, 2004

"Ian St. John" wrote:

> No. I would be right no matter who else agrees.

That figures.

> >> You cannot extract energy from a uniform temperature no matter how
> >> hot.
> >
> > That is not what he said. Temperature is not heat. Energy comes in
> > many forms, almost all of them are abstractions.
>
> Temperature is a measure of heat energy in a material. Try again.

Obviously you have not read any of the links I supplied to you, therefore it is
unproductive to discuss any mathematical models of thermodynamics with you. For
the benefit of those who perhaps are genuinely interested in the modern
definition of 'heat', I can repost the links :

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heat.html#c1

A trivial google search reveals thousands of others.

> >> must have a cold side and a hot side to use the FLOW of energy to
> >> convert to mechanical force.
> >
> > You have just defined 'heat'.
>
> No. I have defined a difference in temperature. Heat is just disordered
> energy. Mechanical motion is ordered energy. Look up entropy.

Look it up yourself, the modern definitions and models are mathematical in
nature.

> > It would help if you guys would do a
> > little research on your own now and then. I supplied some useful
> > links, but apparently neither of you ever bothered to read them.
>
> Your arguments should be sufficient if they were meaningful but the issuance
> of a 'stand and deliver' as your only argument is somewhat ditzy.

I'm not arguing anything, I am merely pointing out that the vast majority of the
modern mathematical and theoretical literature is not in consensus with your
simplistic statements, and I have supplied links which clearly demonstrate the
veracity of my claim, that the original claim that 'heat cannot be converted to
mechanical energy' is incorrect.

> > Furthermore, one also requires a cleverly designed 'devices', with
> > which to convert energy from one form to another,
>
> The devices used to extract the energy do not detract from the fact that the
> energy is available to extract only when there is a difference in
> temperature to utilise.

That's one way, there are others. A difference in temperature causes thermal
energy to flow, and that flow of thermal energy is commonly referred to as
'heat', in most of the modern literature.

> > preferably not a
> > 'heat engine', if you truly want to solve the global warming and
> > global pollution problems.
>
> non-sequitor. The issue here was that heat does not supply energy, a
> difference in heat supplies energy.

Again, that is incorrect usage of an obsolete nomenclature, which was the issue
I raised.

Mark Zemansky, "The Use and Misuse of the Word 'Heat' in Physics Teaching",
Physics Teacher, September 1970, page 295.

> > I really don't think you care one way or
> > the other, you all seem to too busy engaging in a pissing contest, to
> > worry about pesky little scientific and technical details of the
> > actual problem solving process.
>
> They won't be solved by people that cannot understand or agree with basic
> physics so count yourself out.

I advise you to review the literature. Your definition of 'heat' is woefully
inadequate. Furthermore, Carnot cycle heat engines are quite obsolete in the
modern quantum mechanical and electromagnetic world. That's your fundamental
problem, you are unable to comprehend the broader thermodynamic horizons. That
requires modern equations and models, and precise terminology and definitions,
as well as spiritual and intellectual qualities, all of which you appear to be
in desperate need of.

And it's not just you, let's see what the esteemed Dr. Gray has to say :

http://Hurricane.Atmos.ColoState.Edu/Forecasts/2003/nov2003/

"There is no reasonable scientific way that such an interpretation of this
recent upward shift in Atlantic hurricane activity can be made. The effects of
anthropogenic greenhouse gas warming, even if a physically valid hypothesis, are
a very slow and gradual process that, at best, might be expected to bring about
small changes in the global circulation over periods of 50 to 100 years. Hence,
greenhouse gas-linked warming could not be responsible for the abrupt and
dramatic upturn in hurricane activity which has occurred since 1995."

Apparently Dr. Gray still is not quite confident in GW models and data, yet he
can easily brush off a hypothesis without providing any models or data of his
own. Just say no, it's easy.

"Even if human-induced greenhouse gas increases were shown to be causing global
temperature increases during the last 25 years, there is no way to physically
relate such small global temperature changes to this high level of hurricane
activity. Hurricane activity is not related to global mean temperature."

Just say if, it's easy. And this coming from a scientific leader. Science is in
serious trouble.

> >>> Thomas Lee Elifritz
> >>> http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

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