Re: Does electrostatic charge keep a cloud up?


"Falk Tannhäuser" <tannhauser86549spam@xxxxxxx> wrote
news:46c3251e$0$424$426a74cc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Szczepan Bialek schrieb:
"Falk Tannhäuser" <tannhauser86549spam@xxxxxxx> schrieb
[Electrostatic induction]
It should be measured and calculated. I bet that under a cloud is more
electrons (on the surface of the ground) then under the clear sky.

It has been. Have you checked the links below? Under positively charged
cloud regions (rain base, anvil)

All clouds have always excess of electrons. See what shrieb people from
Berlin: http://www.physik.fu-berlin.de/~stelmas/SHG.html
"(e.g. the droplets of thunderstorm clouds have around several 104
elementary charges on them, while the number of charges on non-thunderstorm
clouds is usually 102)"
In your links positive negative probably meens higher or lover voltage.


82*10^6 near to ground level. The higher the smoler number.

You mean because gravity weakens with height?

E weakens with height. At 12 km it is only 2% of that at the ground.



Yes. For this reason large drops fall down (but the fine hang pretty
well).

As long as the ratio of mass to charge (or water molecules to electrons)
is the same, drop size doesn't matter.

In a cloud (in the same cloud region) the voltage is the same. It meens
that the ratio of mass to charge must obey the equation V = Q/C (C js
increasing with the radius while their mass inceases with their cube)

Of course, for very small droplets, the quantisation of electric charge
has to be taken into account. As I wrote above, a charge of 100 C in
100000 m^3 of water is 5.35*10^12 water molecules per electron, or
1.602*10^-13 kg of water per electron.
A droplet of a diameter D = 1 micrometer (10^-6 m, a typical droplet size
observed in Millikan's experiment) has a volume of V = pi/6*D^3 =
5.236*10^-19 m^3 and a mass of 5.236*10^-16 kg. I means that the average
charge per droplet would be 0.00327 electrons - hence most such droplets
are not charged, but one out of 306 carries a charge of one electron (and
thus has a charge 306 times higher than average).
For droplets of 10 micrometer, average charge is 3.27 electrons. The
actual distribution of electrons per droplets follows the Poisson
distribution with lambda = 3.27: P(k) = e^-lambda * lambda^k / k!

It will be better to wait on the results from Berlin.

k (electrons/droplet): 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
P(k) (% of droplets): 3.8 12.4 20.3 22.2 18.1 11.8 6.4 3.0 1.2 0.4 0.1

This is the reason why Millikan's experiment works. Note however that
while the electric field typically used for this experiment is of
comparable strength to the one found within a thunderstorm cloud (about
100 kV/m),

It is impossible. In one region The voltage is almost the same. Here also
will be better to wait as somebody measure it. It will be in near future.
See: http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2004/2003JD004468.shtml


Small droplets fall slower than large ones because of aerodynamic drag
(increasing with the square of their diameter while their mass inceases
with their cube) - they reach a terminal velocity of a just a few
centimetres per second. No "magical force" and no electrostatic force is
involved here.
Bigger droplets of course fall faster and reach the ground as drizzle or
rain (100 micrometer to 5 mm), drops bigger than 6 mm usually break up
sooner or later.

This "magical force" works in each atmospherical conditions. We have XXI
century. In my opinion in XIX century people have known what that was. In
the XX all worked on details and forgot about fundamentals.

Aerodynamic drag was known back in 19th century - guys like Reynolds,
Navier and Stokes did some research on fluid dynamics back then. I doubt
their results were forgotten during 20th century - Millikan and Cunningham
used them!

I wrote to Rodney:
"All what I am talking about was explained in XIX century. In that time
Armstrong made the vapour generator (of high voltage) and Kelvin the drop
generator. The all was described by J. Frenkel in words: ".. Clouds are
electrogravitational generators in in continual run. In place of the
friction and the induction (as it take place in normal generators) are the
condensation and the droplets grow."
But the most important is to remember that the surface of the Earth has
ALWAYS excess of electrons. They are ewerywhere and in sunny days migrate
up. It is obvious that they must come back."
S*


Falk


.

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