Re: Making ALL Roads Into TOLL Roads

From: E.R. (red_starinfrench_at_email.kom)
Date: 11/28/04 

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:22:38 GMT

In a previous posting, ejo <nospam@nospam.org> had the audacity
to say:

:> Probably worth it, at least in the long run. Thalys is a nice
:> train, though I've never enjoyed the pleasure of riding it (I
:> usually rode the "pauper" trains that run at 100-120 kph at best
:> and have fares around a quarter of the Thalys/TGV/Eurostar type
:> stuff).
:
:Are you really sure?

Not really sure, no. But the overall social benefit of such
systems should not be underestimated, imo.

:Currently Amsterdam to Paris is 5,5 hours by train
:and this will become 4 hours.

That's a significant improvement. Kudos to the Dutch
(Nederlandse Spoorwegen) for finally getting around to upgrading
the lines there.

:Nowadays there are about 1600 air
:travellers per day on this route, 380 to/from Brussels, 1200 to/from
:Paris. How many of those passengers will take the TGV? Perhaps 25% and
:very maybe 50%.

If the journey is downtown-to-downtown (Ams. Centraal to Paris
Nord, say), and I believe it is, and furthermore it takes only
about four hours, then it is a serious competitor to the
airlines, price notwithstanding. If the price is competitive
too, then it's pretty much a slam dunk.

But maybe I'm biased, I actually enjoyed riding the trains when
I lived over there. I never used Thalys at all, but have ridden
Eurostar a few times. Normally I travelled on the much cheaper,
slower trains, with a cruising speed of about 100 kph. Even that
is preferable to no rail service at all imo. (Hmmm, maybe I'm
making your point for you a bit here...)

:The total cost of this high speed train line between
:Amsterdam and Paris is 8 billion euros (an estimate including the cost
:overruns).

That's a lot, but not a whole load more than they're
contemplating wasting on a subway line for Vancouver, which will
be far, far, far less useful than a high speed intercity rail
route in the EU!

:This line has to pay itself back from about 800 passengers
:per day. Make the calculation yourself over a 30 year period, 800*365*30
:is the total number of passengers, and 8 billion divided by this number
:is 900 euro per ticket. The conclusion is: not economically viable, can
:only exist if taxpayers keep on subsidizing the tickets.

Indeed, just as they do for the rest of the rail system.

:Highways and cars are really more efficient for transportation,

Only if the roads can actually accommodate them. Also remember
that in Europe, about 70% (maybe more) of the population is not
even licensed to drive. Even over here, driving is also
considered a privilege, so one can't expect people to be able to
drive. There simply must be a transit infrastructure. In
principle, I'm in favour of high speed lines like the
Amsterdam-Paris one we're discussing, although I have to concede
to you partly that €8b is still one heckuva lotta money.

:reality is that taxes
:on gas and cars are used to pay for fantasy projects like the TGV.

A "fantasy" that whisks people from Paris to Nice in, what? Five
hours? Beats a traffic jam, or even the twelve hour ride from
Metz to Nice on the overnight train. (Don't think I'll be doing
*that* again, either.)

:I'm familiar with the situation in the US, public transportation is very
:efficient in cities like Washington DC.

Boston isn't too bad either. But at least up here in Canada,
there is a severe lack of *national* and *Provincial*
infrastructure of the sort one takes for granted in Europe. And
cities like Vancouver even have very poor local provision,
considering the population.

:But I don't recommend anything
:like a TGV.

Canada would do well just having passenger rail full stop. 

-- 
E.R. aka SJG aka Ricardo
present location: vancouver bc canada
refugee from the european union's evil bureaucracy

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