Re: "I am not understood"

From: Sean Holland (seanholland_at_pants.telus.net)
Date: 07/14/04 

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:39:59 GMT

in article cd1ufo011m4@drn.newsguy.com, Charles Eicher at ceicher@inav.net
wrote on 7/13/04 5:24 PM:

> In article <O2HIc.19644$Gf7.6812@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>, necoandjeff
> says...
>>
>> "Charles Eicher" <ceicher@inav.net> wrote in message
>> news:ccuran0ig0@drn.newsguy.com...
>>
>>> You have completely missed the point, as usual. If you weren't so obsessed
>>> with asserting your authority as an expert in Japanese, and so obsessed
>> with
>>> trying to prove everyone else wrong, you might have noticed the actual
>> point
>>> I was trying to make.
>>
>> As I said, I was merely defending a statement I made and that you asserted
>> was wrong. If the person making the assertion that my statement was wrong
>> turns out to be the one who was actually wrong, so be it.
>
> Can you stop with the lawyer bull*** for even ONE second? Are you so
> full of bull*** that you cannot even stand behind your statements, instead
> preferring to spew semantic arguments? Or does everything revolve around
> what the meaning of "IS" is?
>
>>> I have always maintained that the phrase "wakaranai" would be used in
>>> contexts where, if you were speaking English, you would respond with
>>> "I don't know." However, there is a clearly defined rule about whether
>>> one should use shiru or wakaru (and their negative forms depending on
>>> the context. There are clearly some circumstances where it is appropriate
>>> to use shiru but not wakaru.
>>
>> Well yes, if the questioner uses "wakaru?" I would respond with a
>> "wakaru/wakaranai." If the questioner uses "shitteru?" I would respond with
>> a "shitteru/shiranai."
>
> Well of course. This is known as "mirroring" and any 1st year student learns
> how to do it.
>
>> If you are the one initiating the statement, you have
>> a little more freedom in which you choose.
>
> No, if you initiate, you choose according to which verb is appropriate.
>
>> I'm not going to go into every
>> iteration but generally speaking, although shitteru may be more common, they
>> can both be used and they are both used in practice, with no unnatural
>> attempts at distinguishing knowable and understandable as between a person's
>> location and a person's telephone number, for example.
>
> So why is it that NSOJ seem to have no difficulty in naturally using the
> appropriate verb, obeying the rules without having to stop and think
> about them?

Why is it that among the verbs they might choose are verbs that YOU say are
wrong?

>
>>> I will clearly state that there are some
>>> situations where you should ONLY use "shiranai" to respond what would,
>>> in English, be expressed as "I don't know."
>>
>> I'm picturing a supremely confident and erudite Charles Eicher, Makino's
>> Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar safely tucked under his arm, responding
>> to a native speaker who asks, "Tanaka san no denwabango wakaru?" to which he
>> smugly replies, "Iie, shirimasen."
>
> I never said any such thing. Next you'll be pulling more lawyer B.S. and
> asking
> me
> when I stopped beating my wife.
>
> I will let you know how I handle this situation the next time a NSOJ asks me
> that question and uses wakaru. I haven't observed it yet..

Of course not. Your experience is too limited.

>
>> And then opening to page 407 and
>> proceeding to explain how he/she should have asked that particular question
>> using the verb "shiru," happy to have set one more native speaker on the
>> path to speaking proper Japanese...
>
> You can stop beating your wife now.
>
>>> At this point, I've lost track of whatever-the-hell point you were trying
>>> to make, other than whatever point I was making, I'm wrong. But it
>>> appears that you are trying to argue that it is ALWAYS appropriate to
>>> use wakaru and that one never needs to even consider using shiru,
>>> which is completely and obviously wrong.
>>
>> Hmmmm. Where did I say or even suggest that exactly?
>
> I've given you ample opportunity to state your case. Instead you seem
> intent on arguing mine.
>
>>> And no, citing your years of marriage and hours of TV watching isn't
>>> going to prove your point, that sort of appeal to "authority" only makes
>>> you look ridiculous and desperate.
>>
>> Those were cited as reasons why I'm comfortable with my own assertion and
>> not troubled at all by yours, not as reasons why you should believe me.
>
> You've lost track of what your assertion was, and you clearly don't understand
> mine. You have clearly proven that you do not believe the things that I did
> not
> say. Congratulations. You win the slj moot court prize, a cash award of one
> sen.
> Don't spend it all in one place.
>
>> As I
>> said, I have no particular concern how well you speak Japanese Charles.
>
> Of course you don't. You are only concerned with proving you speak better
> Japanese than I do. Anything less would be a crushing blow to your ego.
> Must suck to be you. 

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