Re: subjective feelings about actions?

From: Sean Gilbertson (sean_at_bluebeard.org)
Date: 08/31/04 

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 04:23:24 GMT

On 2004-08-30 19:29:25 -0500, "necoandjeff" <spam@schrepfer.com> said:

> "Kevin Wayne Williams" <kww.nihongo@verizon.nut> wrote in message
> news:10j7gml78ah7eb1@news.supernews.com...
>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>> "Kevin Wayne Williams" <kww.nihongo@verizon.nut> wrote in message
>>> news:10j79a55o5dtkab@news.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Kevin Wayne Williams" <kww.nihongo@verizon.nut> wrote in message
>>>>> news:10j758ol9afr803@news.supernews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sean wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was giving myself a bit of practice by writing a short email to a
>>>>>>> friend in Japanese. I was going to ask him "Do you want to come over
>>>>>>> to my house today?" but I didn't get very far.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try looking up the -tai conjugation of verbs, and see if you come up
>>>>>> with any inspiration.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it would be a bit unusual to express "Do you want to come over
>>>
>>> to my
>>>
>>>>> house today?" with a -tai verb, unless the -tai verb was with respect
> to
>>>>> your own wishes.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My first inclination would have been something like 僕の家へ遊びに行きた
>>>> いですか?, and I might use 僕の家へ遊びに行くことはいいですか？
>>>>
>>>> I was taught to use -tai forms for my own wishes and those of second
>>>> parties, and -tagaru when the wishes were those of a third party.
>>>>
>>>> How far off are those rules from what you consider to be normal?
>>>
>>> First, you don't need the personal pronoun. It is clear from the context
>>> that it is your house since, if it were anyone else's house, you
> wouldn't
>>> call it uchi.
>>>
>>> Second, from your perspective they would kuru to your house not iku.
>> Wouldn't that depend on where I was in relationship to the listener when
>> I asked? If we were at the office or school, wouldn't 行く be
>> appropriate? (Serious question: I always struggle with perspective on
>> coming and going).
>
> This is difficult in any language. I think if you were with the person and
> suggesting that you go to your house right then, you would use iku. But most
> other situations would probably be kuru. When talking about some point in
> the future, the presumption is that you would already be there so they would
> be kuruing from your perspective. I think even in English we would tend to
> say "come over" even when actually with the person wouldn't we?
>
>>>
>>> The problem is, even though "want" is involved here, you wouldn't
> typically
>>> express this request as "do you want to..."
>>
>> I guess I see a difference between "Would you like to go/come to my
>> house?" and "Please come to my house." For "Please come to my house", I
>> like all of yours and Juha's suggestions.
>
> Right, but the point is you wouldn't really ask if someone wants to come
> over like we might in English. This is an example of a situation where the
> direct translation approach just breaks down.
>
> Jeff

        This is the part I'm very interested in. I would like to know if the
culture exerted a force such that the actual language only allows you
to ask it in this way? Or, are there colloquialisms that have a more
western approach? I'm fine with either, I just want to know.

        Thanks for the comments!

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