Re: Japanese learning, is anybody as frustrated as me?
From: muchan (usenet_at_usenet.usenet)
Date: 12/13/04
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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:26:14 +0100
Travers Naran wrote:
>>
>>>Don't be. I believe it's the easiest language an English speaker can
>>>learn. Even easier to learn than the low Dutch and Old & Middle
>>>English that modern English evolved from.
>>
>>I believe the Dutch is easer to learn than French for native English
>>speakers...
>
> My mother speaks an off shoot of low Dutch called Afrikaans, and no
> matter how many times my family has tried, I just couldn't pick up the
> language. And it's the language she spoke most often at home. Yet on
> the other hand, she can converse with Dutch people almost fluently. So
> my mileage was poor.
>
There is one (other) phenomen of learning language. A language which is
very similar with, but different from a language you speak well, is very
easy to recognize, passively understand, but very difficult to learn to
speak "parfectly". For me, it was when I was living in Kyoto, that I can
understand near 100% of Kyoto dialect, but speaking 100% like people there
was inpossible. I learned French and Spanish, and so I can understand
most of Italian when I hear, but when I try to speak it, my mind start to
think in Spanish then I can't speak proper Italian.
(unless/until I learn it properly, of course).
If you put the same effort/energy to learn French and Dutch, I'd bet you
master the Dutch faster ans easier. That's what I'm saying.
>
>>>whole sylabells this way. I suspect the way to learn is memorizing
>>>LOTS and LOTS of French sentences and dialogs so that way it becomes
>>>easier for your brain to recognize the patterns.
>>
>>This is the way to learn "any" language! :)
>
>
> Well, yes you could. But you could also cut down a tree with a sledge
> hammer.
>
I don't know what you want to say with it. Learning the phrases, sentenses,
typical dialogs, are the way to learn "any" language, it's like a saw to
cutting a tree, not a sledge hammer.
>
>>>Heheh. Mine was trying to pronounce "rien" to a French waiter and him
>>>giving me ever more anxious and confused looks.
>>
>>Probably he heard you that you were ordering him "urin". 8)
>
>
> Haha! You know, that's probably what happened. "REEE-en". And we
> were talking about beer at that moment...
> (The closest proper pronunciation, I believe, would be ryen)
>
Maybe you didn't get my point. Pronounciation of 'r' in French and English
are so different, (well, in North and South of Franch are already so different ;)
and English 'r' tends to (or always?) vocalise before you start to roll your
tongue, and it may sound like saying 'u' for (Northan) French people.
You thought saying /ryen/ and it may sounded to him as /uryen/.
(Riksha drivers in Yokohama, after Japan opened its ports to foerigners,
learned English words "phonetically", just as they hear, and they registered
the English word "red" as /ure/. Probably it still holds that Japanese boys &
girls, who learned to say /ur/ to pronounce 'r' in English may be heard easier
by native speakers of English...)
muchan
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