Re: Need help choosing a novel to read
From: Kevin Gowen (kgowenNOSPAM_at_myfastmail.com)
Date: 01/15/05
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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:44:06 -0500
necoandjeff wrote:
> Kevin Gowen wrote:
>
>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>>Kevin Gowen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Kevin Gowen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Kevin Gowen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Gavin Steyn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Since teaching myself Japanese
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>No, you aren't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As a fellow dokukgakuer, I wonder if you might clarify what you
>>>>>>>mean here Kevin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You've never had any guidance whatsoever?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From a teacher? No, not until I had already been studying for 4
>>>>>years and was conversational. Even my girlfriend back then didn't
>>>>>really give me guidance so much as act as a sounding board for
>>>>>things I figured out on my own. I learned most of my Japanese early
>>>>>on from dictionaries, trudging through books word for word, and
>>>>>television dramas, as well as listening in on conversations among
>>>>>Japanese. The only real guidance I had was for one year at Nagoya
>>>>>University, but that was after 4 years of studying on my own and
>>>>>getting to the point that I was able to pass the test and get the
>>>>>monbusho scholarship. By then I was already approaching JPL2
>>>>>ability.
>>>>
>>>>By "guidance" I don't necessarily mean an instructor. No one ever
>>>>taught me English.
>>>
>>>
>>>No one ever taught you English? Well perhaps that is why you are
>>>having trouble with what English speakers commonly mean when they
>>>say self-taught. By your definition, I think it is safe to say the
>>>only person in the world who is self-taught in a language is L.L.
>>>Zamenhof, being self-taught in Esperanto.
>>
>>Well, Tolkien surely taught himself Quenya. When I think of
>>"self-taught", I think of Srinivasa Ramanujan.
>>
>> > Do you suppose that is how "self-taught" is commonly understood,
>>
>>>Kevin?
>>
>>As you may have figured out by now, I don't spend much time
>>speculating about how this or that is commonly understood. Too ad
>>numerum for me. Besides, what good is being common? I didn't get
>>where I am today by aiming for the median.
>
>
> Normally, not a bad strategy. But language is all about communication and
> you can't be an effective communicator by ignoring the commonly understood
> meaning of words and phrases. (Que for Kevin to once again bring up the
> non-sequitor about redefining marriage...)
When was the first time I brought up redefining marriage as a
non-sequitor [sic]?
>>>If you learned in a classroom under the guidance of a teacher, you
>>>are not self-taught. If you learned by yourself using reference
>>>books, dictionaries, texts, etc., outside of the formal classroom
>>>setting you are self-taught. Does anyone else have trouble with this
>>>concept?
>>
>>I understand perfectly well that is your notion. I just disagree that
>>you did it all by yourself.
>
>
> Being self-taught in a language doesn't mean "complete isolation from
> guidance." I studied for two years before even being exposed to a live
> Japanese speaker (my girlfriend.) But even after I met her, she was access
> to resources (like music, some dictionaries, etc.) and someone to practice
> on. But she never really taught me Japanese. You have to understand this was
> mid to late 80s in Northern Kentucky. I was lucky to find a World War II era
> Tuttle textbook at the local B. Dalton. In fact I learned some pretty
> bizzarre words early on (like chukuonki) because of the limited materials I
> had to work with. My first exposure to writing was that orange Tuttle kanji
> reference book that I actually came across in a bookstore somewhere. I had
> no idea what the hell it all meant at first, and nobody was there to explain
> it to me. I didn't understand the difference between hiragana, katakana and
> kanji at all. I even thought the single kanji where actually individual
> vocabulary words that meant the one word English words that appeared with
> each one. It was a total disaster. But through slow trial and error and
> analyzing Japanese texts, and reconciling it all back to that little romaji
> World War II era textbook, I eventually got the basic gist of it. Believe me
> I wish someone had been there to explain it to me. I would have saved myself
> a lot of trouble.
You talk a lot about writing as if studying orthography means you taught
yourself a language.
>>You benefited from interaction with native
>>speakers and immersion in a Japanese environment.
>
>
> Of course. I don't think these things are at all inconsistent with what
> people mean when they say "self taught."
I really have no idea what they mean. I certainly wouldn't say that I
taught myself English.
>>No one made you sit
>>in a chair and hand in homework, but you certainly didn't teach
>>yourself.
>
>
> Yes, as a matter of fact, I did teach myself. In fact, I made myself sit in
> a chair and spend hours and hours flipping through hand made flash cards to
> learn kanji, once I figured out what they were all about.
Kanji != the Japanese language.
- Kevin
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