Re: QUERY: Particular formation rule in Makino.

Bart Mathias wrote:
>>>
>>>>Now (after second thought) I doubt that the first "sou" (as looks like)
>>>>is probably from Chinese 相...
>>>>the second is probably "-sa ifu" -> "-safu" -> "-sau" -> "sou",
>>>>but still not sure.
>
> One contrary guy typing at my chat box is inclined to believe the other
> way around, i.e., that it is 降り相.
>

This is agreeing with my second thought version...
(but it loos agree written with 相...)

> The second one is more harder, but I for one will be hard to convince
> it's not the same as the one in そうだ, and I'm inclined to believe it's
> native, although I imagine one might be able to make a case for 漢語
> 「左右」.
>
> If it's そう(だ), it seems to me I have encountered its cousin
> somewhere, something probably not exactly like, but similar to, 雨が降る
> とだ.
>
> The history of the こそあどs is very confused, and they seem to have
> regularized themselves only in relatively modern times, but そ = 其 goes
> way back. I wonder what evidence the 歴史的仮名遣 「さう」 regularly
> assigned to そう is based on?
>

IIRC, Oono suspected こそあど may come from Cambodia or sathern minority
nation of China... (but I don't remember if he changed this opinion when
he adopted Dravida theory...)

About Sa and So, I think it doesn't matter much... こそあど means KS[V]D, IMHO.

>
>>>難しいですね。
>>>「そうだ」（相）、「ようだ」（様）などという言葉が漢語から来たと
>>>考えたくないような気持ちもするのですが、やはりそう考えざるを
>>>得ないのでしょうかね・・・。
>>>
>>>　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　上　柴　公　二
>>>
>>
>>
>>かわいそう、なんていうのはもともと仏教の坊さんが使う言葉だったのかな。
>>（連体形＋）ように、というのも仏教の匂いがするような…
>>
>>「らしい」というのは和語ですね。
>
>
> isog-asi-, natuk-asi-, などと同じパターンだろうと思いますが、r-asi- の r
> は何なのかパズルですね。ar(i)のなのか、miy-u-ruのなのか...
>

あれ、ついこの前同じ質問した人がいなかったっけ。

> 「かわいそう」(←「かは映ゆ相」？ 「かは」はなに？)につきおっしゃるのは
> ちょっとわかりません。
>
> Bart

可哀相、これは当て字か？オリジナル？

上柴さん wrote:
>
>>
>> 「らしい」というのは和語ですね。
>
>
> 中大兄、三山の歌一首
> 香具山は　畝傍を惜しと　耳梨と　相争ひき
> 神代より　かくに有良之（有るらし）
> いにしへも　然にあれこそ　うつせみも　妻を
> 争ふ良思吉（らしき）　　　（万・巻１・１３）
>
> の直系の子孫ですから・・・
>
> 　　　　　　　　　　　　　上　柴　公　二

究極的には万葉集に出てくるかどうか、で大和言葉かどうかが決まるわけですね。
（というか、出てくれば漢語以前のもの、とほぼ言える、と。）

コメ、とかウマとかいう言葉が古い中国語の音が輸入されたもの、という説も
聞いたことがありますが、仏教伝来以前に日本語化したものは和語とみなして
いいんでしょうね、多分。

muchan
.

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