Re: Origin of -nai

Zhen Lin wrote:
> Bart Mathias wrote:
>
>>Zhen Lin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>[...]
>>
>>>Why is なひ missing from the conjugation chart for なふ at 大辞林? ...
>>>For that matter, how is it that the 連体形 is なへ?
>>
>>If "at 大辞林" is a free online dictionary, I haven't learned how to
>>access it yet.
>
> There are a few places - aside from the bookstore - that you can access
> it - including at http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/

I had looked at that before writing my plaint. I can type なふ in the
string requester and click 国語, but I don't know how to narrow it down
to 大辞林. Maybe that's what comes up?

>>But my guess would be that no 連用形 examples turn up in
>>the old literature. As for why the 連体形 is なへ, again it's only my
>>guess, but I suspect it is basically because people talk funny, and them
>>Azuma guys no less than anyone else.
>
> Indeed. Was Azuma very different to the standard of the time? More so
> than modern Kansai and modern standard?

Well, that's certainly the impression I get from looking at 東歌. But
I'm inclined to compare it more with 平安 Japanese, in which I once
considered myself fairly adept, than 奈良, which I shamefacedly confess
to never having really gotten around to trying to master.

>>Also, man'yogana was devised to
>>write the Central Japanese dialect of the time, and even if the writers
>>heard things correctly, there must have been cases when they couldn't
>>come all that close in writing. Imagine trying to write Nagoya-ben in
>>straight modern kana.
>
> That could be troublesome... Speaking of which, I never really got a
> chance to hear real Nagoya-ben... hm.

Me, either, as far as anything specifically Nagoya-shi is concerned.
I've heard a fair amount of TV-version Shizuoka-ben. Apparently (国語学
会編『国語学辞典』, 1966[!], p. 848) the Nagoya dialect has an
eight-vowel system, so five 列 of kana won't quite do it.

One of the things that arouse my suspicions about the data we have on
the あずま and other non-近畿 languages of the OJ period is the word for
"branch." In the "standard" language, it was "yeda." The eastern
version of the word was written as "yade." So what do we reconstruct as
the proto-Nara-Azuma word for "branch"?

>>>What's the earliest use of ない?
>>
>>As a verb ending? You got me, either way; waaay before my time. If
>>it's really from -nape, then no earlier than p → f → w/0 in the dialect
>>in question. If you mean 無き → ない, then probably Heian times (it
>>doesn't show up in documents nearly as much as adjective く → う,
>>though, if at all).
>
>
> 無い emerged so early? Hm. I thought it was some Edo thing... So the
> conflation of 無し and 無い came later then?

You're losing me here. What conflation of 無し and 無い?

My guess that 無い was probably to be heard in Heian times rests on the
fact that dropping the <k> in adjective く forms was so common it even
made it into the written language, and so did such instances of き → い
as in 垣間(かいま)見る and 朔(ついたち). I lack any good ideas about
how to track down the first documented ...い as 連体形 (or 終止形) of a
形容詞.

> But yes, my original question was about 〜ない. So I guess that too was
> from around Edo? Apparently, it is mentioned in the 日本大文典.

Isn't that more Muromachi? It would be interesting to know what 日本大
文典 says about it--presumably it would have been strictly an eastern
feature but it probably gained a certain respectability when power was
in Kamakura.

>>>[...]
> Ah, I guess I should rephrase. When did the standard language of the
> time start using 〜ない instead of 〜ず・ぬ? I'm guessing it's linked to
> the rise of Edo Japanese. Or was it later still, during the Meiji
> Restoration?

It must have been common in Edo. Whether anyone considered it
"standard" or not I can't say. I'm sure the 天皇 clique didn't start
using it probably until Meiji at the earliest.

Meanwhile ず had gone the way of the other original 終止形, into limbo
except in the literary language, and replaced by ん as the descendant of
ぬ. This ん too of course survives in the 近畿・関東 amalgam spoken in
Edo and now the "standard" of the whole country. Nobody hardly ever
says anything like 行きませない.

> [...] Perhaps I will publish a book one day,
> "Unsolved problems in Japanese linguistics".

Wow, if you're gonna do such a big book, you better get started!

Bart
.