Re: KANJD212

jwb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> dareka <dareka@xxxxxxxxxxx> dixit:
>
>>jwb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
>
>>>Can you cite some actual examples with code-points?
>
>
>>Excerpts from JIS X 0213:2000 附属書7 2.1 JIS X 0208との包摂関
>>係の違い:
>><.....>
>>a) JIS X 0208 6.6.4(過去の規格との互換性を維持するための包摂規
>>準)は, この規格には適用しない。
>><.....>
>>b) 戸籍法施行規則付則別表“人名用漢字許容字体表” (昭和56年法務
>>省令51)の漢字, 及び常用漢字表(昭和56年内閣告示第1号) のかっこ
>>書き内の漢字(“いわゆる康煕こうき 字典体”) のうち, JIS X 0208
>>で包摂していた漢字を追加した。このため, 次の面区点位置は, JIS
>>X 0208 と包摂の解釈が異なる。
>><.....>
>>c) 包摂規準の変更・追加による変更。
>><.....>
>> 1) JIS X 0208 にある包摂規準に変更を加えたもの
>><.....>
>> 2) この規格で追加したもの (I don't know whether this one
>>means the kanjis included in this in X 0208 are not compatible
>>with the X 0213 kanjis.)
>><.....>
>
>
> As I read this section, it is explaining the glyphs that had
> previously been absent from the standards (i.e. JIS208), and
> hence you had to substitute. For example if you wanted
> 口亞 you had to use 唖. With JIS213 there is a real 口亞
> kanji there. See
> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/jwb/wwwjdic?1MKU555e
> This kanji, BTW, was in JIS212, but practically no-one used it.

口亞 is one of 29 kanjis that comes from "附属書7 2.1 a)". Cf.
JIS X 0208 6.6.4 on this page:
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/hosetsu_kijyun/0208-6.6.4.html
Perhaps 口亞 and other glyphs on the right column (康煕字典
体?) of the link page are the kanjis that had been formal X
0208 glyphs initially, but, in 1983 JIS X 0208, the glyphs
were replaced by, perhaps, more standard Japanese simplified
kanjis (on the left column) and the replacement made a great
fuss. And in later X 0208, the old set of glyphs were allowed
to be formal X 208 glyphs again in addition to the new one for
backward compatibility because of the fuss (JIS X 0208 6.6.4).

And, yes, 唖 is not a good example when you compare Unicode
and X 0213; perhaps 口亞 is as independent as 口亜 is in
Unicode. I should have picked up a kanji thrown into
Compatibility Ideograph area of Unicode.

>
> I don't think it is saying that 唖 has been replaced by 口亞.
> In Shibano's "JIS漢字字典" (Shibano chaired the committee that
> revised JIS208 and compiled JIS213) 唖 is alive and well, and
> 口亞 is there too. Otherwise we'd have to replace use
> of 勉 with UCS+FA33, and that won't happen in a hurry.

I wasn't saying that 口亜 has been replaced by 口亞, but I
said in JIS X 0208, glyph of 区点 16-02 can be either 口亜 or
口亞, but in JIS X 0213 it has to be 口亜. Hence my analogy of
"a" and "A": in X 0208 both 口亜 and 口亞 ("a" and "A") share
a same codepoint, but in X 0213, 面区点 1-16-02 has to be
necessarily 口亜 ("a"). So, of course, if you use ISO-2022-JP
you are not sure about whether 唖 is displayed as 口亜 or 口亞.

Most of the X 0208 kanjis I listed in the previous post are
prohibited in ISO-2022-JP-3 because of this altered 包摂規準.
The reason of the prohibition is obvious. You may
unintentionally confuse the kanjis when you think you clearly
distinguished the kanjis. (Like when you think you correctly
inputed your customer's name or code when sending money)

I also found the following one of 附属書7 2.1 on the Internet
after the previous post; perhaps drafted for JIS X 0213:2004.

d) 国語審議会答申『表外漢字字体表』（平成12 年12 月8 日）に対
応するために，JIS X 0208 で包摂していた漢字を国際整合性も勘案
して新たに10文字追加した。このため，次の面区点位置は，JIS X
0208と包摂の解釈が異なる。かっこ内に示すのは，対応するこの規格
の面区点番号の字体である。
倶 1-22-70（O 1-14-1），剥 1-39-77（a 1-15-94），叱 1-28-24（m
1-47-52）， 呑 1-38-61（C 1-47-94），嘘 1-17-19（G 1-84-7），
妍 1-53-11（U 1-94-90）， 屏 1-54-2（i 1-94-91），并 1-54-85
（n 1-94-92），痩 1-33-73（5 1-94-93）， 繋 1-23-50（S 1-94-94）

>
>
>>>JIS213 suggested some rather subtle glyph changes, but there's no
>>>"old" code-point" and "new" codepoint. The kanji in JIS208 are still
>>>where they always were. JIS213 added some variants, for example
>>>齟, which is in JIS208, has been joined by a variant with a 米 in the
>>>box. See:
>>>http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=2A5F1
>
>
>>I don't know whether this 齟 in X 0208 is compatible with X
>>0213 or not as it is not listed in the above list.
>
>
> It is compatible. JIS213 took nothing away from JIS208.

If I have not read all of these JIS X 0208 6.6 and X 0213 6.6
漢字の面区点位置の解釈:
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/hosetsu_kijyun/index.html
(the parent page of the above link)
and understand all of them, I'm not sure if X 0208 齟 is
really compatible. But if this kanji is not listed in JIS X
0213 附属書 7 2.1, perhaps it means 歯且 have not been
comprised in X 0208 齟 in the first place. (That means
variants of the inside of the square part of 歯 is not listed
in JIS X 0208 6.6.3)

By the way, as to Microsoft's adoption of JIS X 0213, it seems
they didn't say they would adopt Shift_JIS-2004. So, perhaps
what they mean by JIS X 0213 対応 is that there will be only
JIS X 0213 compatible Unicode fonts (so the fonts are Japanese
Unicode fonts and the Unicode will be Japanese Unicode if you
want the Windows to be compatible with JIS X 0213. How lame it
could be?) and no new codepage.

--

dareka dareka@xxxxxxxxxxx
.

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