Re: KANJD212

dareka <dareka@xxxxxxxxxxx> dixit:
>jwb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>> dareka <dareka@xxxxxxxxxxx> dixit:
>>
>>>And in later X 0208, the old set of glyphs were allowed
>>>to be formal X 208 glyphs again in addition to the new one for
>>>backward compatibility because of the fuss (JIS X 0208 6.6.4).
>>
>> Well, sort of. The 1983 version of JIS208 meddled with glyphs
>> in a way that modern standardization would not accept. Some changes
>> involved dropping the 祀 しめす in favour of 礼, changing two-dot
>> しんにゅうs to one-dot, etc. etc.

>I don't understand what you mean by "modern standardization".

Well, the current approach is to establish a code-point according
to a number of factors, but not to be prescriptive about the finer
points of the glyphs. For example in 籾 the length of the last stroke
was reduced. Nothing else changed; it was still the same kanji. That
wouldn't happen now.

>If it's one like Unicode, then I don't agree at all. And I
>guess what they did in 1983 was not wrong at all in general if
>there had not already been an existing JIS X 0208. At least,
>what they tried to do were more tailored one to the actual
>demands.

Well, they were still caught up in the idea that the standard
dictated the glyphs. This is still a common attitude in Japan,
which is why many people were upset when the first Unicode
standard was published. Many characters had Chinese-looking glyphs,
so the view emerged that Unicode "used" Chinese-looking characters.
When JIS X 0221 (the Japanese equivalent of ISO 10646/Unicode), the
characters were printed using Japanese, Chinese and Korean fonts, to
show that the standard characters and their printed forms were
decoupled.

>> Later on the standards committee backed away from glyph issues & dropped
>> support for JIS X 9051-1984 which had tried to define glyphs.

>This one gives me a very different impression from what I
>understand: I don't know about JIS X 9051-1984, but they
>became stricter or began to define on allowable shapes of
>kanji of a codepoint(i.e. what JIS people call 包摂規準) in
>JIS X 0208:1997 and the later standards because they had been
>through the JIS 1983 troubles.

No, it was because the very original standard, JIS C 6220-1976, had
done some ham-fisted unification of similar kanji, which had upset
people. The fiddling around in the 1983 version of JIS X 0208
(successor to JIS C 6220) was an attempt to backpedal a little.
JIS X 0213 effectively opened the door to de-unifying those kanji.

>> OK. I see now what you are getting at. To my way of thinking JIS213
>> is still an extension of JIS208, but yes, it does constrain previous
>> freedom as to which glyphs you use.

>I don't call it "freedom", instead "compromise" or
>"suppression" because there have always been voices that
>demand more and detailed kanjis and other characters but they
>have been suppressed or compromised by the suppliers.

Indeed.

>>>So, of course, if you use ISO-2022-JP
>>>you are not sure about whether 唖 is displayed as 口亜 or 口亞.
>>
>> Well, at one level it doesn't matter which ecapsulation you use:
>> EUC, SJIS, ISO-2022-JP, etc. you have never had real control over the
>> glyphs, at least for particular code-points. ISO-2022-JP has been a
>> partial exception in that you have had
>> the 1B 24 40 and 1B 24 42 shift-in codes (the Old-JIS and New-JIS)
>> which in theory let you say with kuten 16-02 whether you got
>> 唖 or 口亞.

>I really shouldn't have blindly picked up the first JIS X 0208
>kanji on 附属書 2 表 1 which lists characters you can't use in
>ISO-2022-JP-3 by 1B 24 42. Then I don't know the reason why
>this kanji is on the list. Anyway, it seems both ISO(if
>ISO-2022-JP is a ISO thing) and Unicode absorbed the
>differences(or subtleties if you prefer) in JIS X 0208:1983.

ISO 2022 is a structure for carrying various national codes, and
JSC is the body which locks down which codesets are specified by
which escape sequence for the Japanese sets.

It's a bit of a hack in that 十 can be coded at least 3 different ways:
Japanese, Chinese and Korean. Hence you have the problems you get when
you try and compare n with ｎ.

>> That seems sensible to me. Microsoft is solidly Unicode these
>> days, and Shift_JIS support is legacy.

>On the second thought, they might have the codepage or
>something. Think of when users complain about they can't
>browse homepages or read texts correctly that are encoded in
>Shift_JIS-2004 or EUC_JP-2004 and the OS has the blurb "JIS X
>0213:2004 対応" somewhere in it. Anyway, I've decided that if
>they don't I'll call Microsoft support center about their X
>0213 support and complain more than thirty minutes.

In fact the vast majority of kanji that are ever likely to be
used are in JIS X 0208. If I were to try and push beyond that,
I'd go straight to Unicode and not futz around with JIS213. All
of JIS213 is in Unicode.

--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
.

Relevant Pages

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