Re: Neutral meaning of the particle "O"

mirror wrote:
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:03:46 +0100, muchan <muchan@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Whatever screw driver and tool, just give me some _Japanese_sentenses_
to ilustrate your theory/hypothesis to distinct GA/ARU utterance and O/IR,
if you want to discuss about your grammatical thinking.
Sincerly I don't know what you are talking about with these terms.


I use GA/ARU as a category for words used in speech or writing
about static, descriptive situations. I use O/IRU as a category for
words used in speech or writing about situations involving some
type of change.

I say, for example, the GA/ARU category describes something you
"observe" (perceive) that does not -- will not -- change by itself.
It must be changed from the outside.

I say the O/IRU category describes something you "observe"
(perceive) that changes on its own, by itself. You might be sitting
next to a telephone, and it rings with a call for you. That phone
is among the IRU things.


電話がなっている。Why it is called with "O/IRU category" without "O"?

*****

If these distinctions do not seem reasonable to you, tell me. My
whole idea will fall apart. And I will work more to understand.


Reasonable or not, I can't tell without seeing any example sentenses.
You use a word "IRU" for some meaning without showing any Japanese
sentense that use the word "IRU" in such meaning. If you can't provide
one, I'd say, the whole idea didn't rise together, before falling apart.

If you are talking about -te-aru, -te-iru, then
"ARU" things are telling something was done and left as done,
and still staying as done.
「ドアが開けてある」
　「冷蔵庫にコーヒーゼリーが作ってあるから、食べてね」
(Often the action was done for some intention, but sometimes not...)

"IRU" thing is a little more complicated, 1) something is now occuring
(like 電話 example abobe), or 2) now it's a phase in long duration of
something (裁判がおこなわれている）, or 3) for some verbs (like 知る)
it's once done and then stays as done (like 知っている) or 4) just talking
some thing was done in the past （like 去年の３月に彼の追悼行事が行われている),etc.
More through explication about "-iru" must be found somewhere and I don't
insist I covered it all here, but in any case, I don't see the reason
it should be called "O/IRU" uttering as you described.

The usage of が and を are another things from ある and いる, and
in above samples, every いる example were used with が.

Thank you.


You're welcome. (but for what?)



(And I am not Paul.)

It was you who signed Paul...
:(


muchan
.