Re: 治れば治ったで？？

Marc Adler wrote:
Sho wrote:

I'm not quite clear as to what you mean by the above. Doesn't it work
only for your example?

The exception I'm talking about is sticking で right onto a verb,
without an intervening の or some other nominalizer. I don't
understand grammar myself, so that's about as far as I can explain it.
Bart or Zhen Lin can probably explain what I meant by exception.
(Sorry!)

Ah... now I understand what you mean, and that sort of clears up what
has been sizzling in the back of my head as well. I'm not Bart or Zhen
Lin, so I shouldn't go into anything like a grammatical analysis, but I
myself feel that this may be an abruptly cut-off quotation from
something longer like 治[れば/ったら]治ったという[こと/ところ]で.

The difference between this and 治[れば/ったら]治ったで is that, while
the former usually cannot get away from that assumptive/pretentious
nuance, the latter sees "her having been cured" as an unmistakable fact.
However, there could be occasions where people actually say something as
wordy and meaningless as the former in trying to say the latter. In any
event, I would see the "V-reba/tara V" as idiomatic, and as you say,
exceptional. There is something inside me compelling me to say that the
structure as a whole is one case of nominalization. I feel I can replace
any instance of this with それで.

In your first post, did you by any chance mean ともちゃん_の_家 or did
you meant to have us read ともちゃん家 as "tomochanchi"?

Marc Adler wrote:
muchan wrote:

IF/WHEN (that "otherwise" was actually) done, THEN (contrary to
expectation). ;)

Now I'm getting curious as to the origin of this construction. It
sounds like a contraction. Or does it?

「行ったら行ったので楽しかったよ」？

Nope. But then my version というところで doesn't work either, well
perhaps a tiny bit better. ?行ったら行ったという[ところ/こと]で、楽しく
はあったよ。Again, the meaning can be pretty different.

Chance's comment about ではないか
points out another use of a postposition directly on an unnominalized
verb, which I hadn't thought of.

That seems like a matter of the copula だ than the post position で, not
that they are not in any historical sense related, perhaps.

Your suggestion that it's a quotation is interesting, but wouldn't you
be able to fit a と in there somehow if it were?
「行ったら行ったと、で楽しかったよ」？

The first half looks like a contraction of 行ったら行ったと言えばよいの
に。(with a touten to separate into two sentences) or something like
that. The second part doesn't match with the first the way it is. You
could have a question like で、楽しかった?

Just my two sen, which are no longer in use.

Sho

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