Re: kill-threading?


(intentionally top-posting)

You said "final comment", so be it,
and I'm glad to end this discussion as soon as possible.

You answered mostly about "semantic" correspondence of translation,
(and I think it's quite normal, since "meaning is not irrelevant"),
where my question hee was rather more about "meaning is irrelevant" way. 8)

Whether "where" in the original sentense (2*) is inside or outside the
because-clause, and if it was outside, as I see it, the structure of given
3 Japanese sentenses correspond to it, in way that "doko" appears outside
of the clause. ( "-tame" corresponding to "becuase").

The reason I failed to provide help/tranlation at my first glance of the
first question of OP, was semantic ambiguity, ("saw enemy" -> "unhappy"? how),
"who is enemy? in what situation? Is he a soldier? "unhappy because.."?
or "do you think because.."? etc.) that I couldn't make the context that
the target Japanese sentense sounds correct. Using "deatta" instead of "mita",
or Cindy's "bibitta" instead of "hukoo-datta" are the attmept to give a context
that the translated Japanese would have at least one unambigous meaning.

The original question of 'Is it possible..." question can be asking two things,
depends on how we read the 2* sentense.

1) Is it possible for Japanese to construct a question, in which "where" can
stay inside because-clause? (as you trided to give the translation)
and the answer would be: Yes.

2) is it acceptable as Japanese sentense, when directly translated with this
ungramatical structure of English sentense?
(i.e. "where" going outside of "because-clause", as Cindy's version)
and the answer would be: Yes.

As your interpretation, OP seemed to be wanting 1), but the question he wrote
(as quoted bellow) was indeed asking 2), IMHR.

Now answers were Yes and Yes, and be it final.

muchan


Bart Mathias wrote:
muchan wrote:

Now without any (inter)personal relation or feeling, when the original
question was asked

======================================================================
2. *Where do you think that he was unhappy because he saw his enemy?

Is it possible to form a corresponding Japanese sentence, which is
nevertheless correct?
Or would such a sentence still be incorrect like 2 in English?
======================================================================

The 2* sentense has "Where" already outside the clause, so the translation
like
　 ( 〜出会ったのは)はどこだったと思いますか。
( 〜出会ったためびびったの)はどこだったと思いますか。
( 〜出会ったため不幸になったの)はどこだったと思いますか。　

Is indeed corresponding to the 2*, and it's still nevertheless correct.
So, I think Cindy was reading (this) question in English quite correctly,
wasn't she?


I'm not about to plow back into that thread to see exactly how Cindy
translated it, but I will offer some final comments.

First, sentence 2 out of context (such as a discussion of what it ought,
but fails, to mean) is only a little worse than (?)"Where was he
unhappy?" or probably exactly as bad as ?"Where was he unhappy because
he saw his enemy?" The latter is just really weird because it doesn't
make obvious sense to relate a place to being unhappy about seeing
someone, perhaps someplace else.

Of the "〜" translations listed above, the first is out because it asks
where someone *met* someone, and it is impossible to take the English
that way.

The second and third seem more like English "Where do you think it was
that he became unhappy because 〜." Are you saying that these Japanese
versions are acceptable? Maybe another sign that my Japanese is much
worse than I thought, but I hear the bizarre question "Where did he
become unhappy?" in them, which would make them a translation of 2. with
the "*" removed. In that sense I suppose you could say they were
correct translations but missed the spirit of the query.

I find "Where do you think it was that he became unhappy because he saw
his enemy there?" borderline acceptable, and that is probably why I came
up with a Japanese version with "soko-de" in it (which I believe was
rejected, but I'm not about to go back and look).

These kinds of questions always made my head spin even before senile
dementia set in.

Bart
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: I need some help from native speakers of Japanese
    ... Probably this Ray is a linguist, who needs Japanese translation only to ... example with clear meaning. ... I appreciated your translation of that post into English. ... It's impossible to tranlate a sentense without ...
    (sci.lang.japan)
  • Re: kill-threading?
    ... You answered mostly about "semantic" correspondence of translation, ... Whether "where" in the original sentense is inside or outside the ... Japanese sentenses correspond to it, in way that "doko" appears outside ... *Where do you think that he was unhappy because he saw his enemy? ...
    (sci.lang.japan)
  • Re: kill-threading?
    ... *Where do you think that he was unhappy because he saw his enemy? ... The 2* sentense has "Where" already outside the clause, so the translation ... Are you saying that these Japanese ...
    (sci.lang.japan)
  • Re: Full Metal Alchemist English Teacher
    ... where she taught Japanese vocabulary thru anime. ... Rika Takahashi, as many of you know, is an MKR expert. ... Bottom line: Bad translation. ...
    (rec.arts.anime.misc)
  • Re: Translating by Feel
    ... When translating or interpreting Japanese into English, ... source language and more dependent on the situation and the context. ... caught up in the word-for-word method of translation. ...
    (sci.lang.japan)
Loading