Re: Query: Use of WO where DE is expected.

Ben Finney wrote:
mirror <mailto@xxxxxxxxx> writes:


Hello,

In Jack Halperin's big kanji dictionary on page 30 for the entry I
(as in `igai' and irai') is...
"Kogatana o motte korosu." (to kill [a person] with a knife)

This is an odd usage of the particle O. I would have expected DE
here, since O seems to say "to kill a knife". Can anybody help me
understand this idiom?


kogatana wo motsu -> kogatana wo motte korosu
-> kogatana wo motte kuru
-> kogatana wo motte kiru

I believe it's a mistake for sentence forms like this to be taught as

[[kogatana wo] [motte korosu]]

rather than

[[kogatana wo motte] korosu]

The latter is how I parse these structures, and it seems to fit just
about all the example and real-use sentences I've enountered. It also
makes it clear which particle should be used.

Yet time after time I see people learning "motte korosu" and a zillion
other things as though they are distinct verbs -- and then, of course,
you have to deal with the confusion of "oh, "kogatana" would normally
take "de" but for this verb it needs "wo" instead" or some such, ad
absurdum.

The books I see *encourage* this, teaching "tsurete itte kureru" as
some kind of new verb form with its own grammar, and then having to
unwind the confusion of "for these particular forms you use "wo"
instead of "ni", these other ones you use "de" instead of "ni"".

Instead I just apply whatever rules go with the "suru" of "***
kureru", and specify "marumaru-san ni" to go with "kureru" if he's not
already clear from context -- i.e., no new grammar required at all.

Is it me who's crazy?

Good question. You certainly seem to have found some crazy books that sane book users would find it easy to shun.

Bart
.