Re: のっぴきならない


"Phil Yff" <phil.yff@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:f89ytb0oux2v$.yfqw9sxdlz2d.dlg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 13:02:59 +0900, B. Ito wrote:

"Bart Mathias" <mathias@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:r8ydnQR82p4z5lPZnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Phil Yff wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:58:36 -1000, Bart Mathias wrote:

[...]
I believe that Japanese works to some extent like English where "You
can't do that!" means "You must not do that." I might understand ならな

い meaning "できない" in that sense. But it occurs to me you probably
wouldn't have put it that way if that's what you meant. Can you give
(other) examples of ならない = できない?


I heard this the other day:
どうもこうもそう思われてならない No matter what, I can't but think that.

I'm pretty sure you can tell the difference between that and *どうもこう
もそう思われてできない and join me in rejecting that as one of the
examples requested.

How about this saying:
ならぬ堪忍するが堪忍. Enduring what cannot be endured.

= できぬ堪忍するが堪忍? I'm doubtful.
[...]

Would you also accept a much more common example:
話にならない: Cannot talk about sth.

I guess I take that differently from you: *"It will not become
talking" --> "It's not worth talking about." I think it might also have
the sense of "unspeakable [evil, etc.]" in some contexts. I was about to
reject 話にできない, but fortunately caught myself. I don't think it's
really a *good* example, but I guess I'll have to accept it.

のっぴきできない would of course also be grammatical if only there were a
word のっぴき, but as it is I'll never know whether it means the same as
のっぴきならない or not.

Bart (long weekend now over)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another long weekdays've started?

The Japanese language really depends on contexts.
The following two sentences are both acceptable and have a similar
nuance in one of the situations.

I heard this the other day:
どうもこうもそう思われてならない No matter what, I can't but think that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
どうもこうもならない、と思われる。（そう思うので、どうもこうもならない。）


(Nothing won't be done.)


I'm pretty sure you can tell the difference between that and *どうもこう
もそう思われてできない and join me in rejecting that as one of the
examples requested.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
　　どうもこうもできない、と思われる。（そう思うので、どうもこうもできない。）


(Nothing can't be done.)


How about this saying:
ならぬ堪忍するが堪忍. Enduring what cannot be endured.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
　 How about "Enduring what is(or seems) hard to be endured." ?


I was trying to find examples where the word ならない/ならぬ might have the
meaning 'cannot'. Can you think of any?

Mata ato de,

Phil Yff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK. The following ならないis quite equal to the English "cannot."

1) 　ならない＝ならぬ＝cannot= must not=should not
　その木に登ってはならない。　（・・・・・ならぬ。）
　　　嘘をついてはならない。
　　　全部大文字で書いてはならない。
　　　他人の悪口を言ってはならない。
　　　
　　　
2) 　ならない＝ならぬ＝cannot=impossible
　　　なせばなる、なさねばならぬなにごとも、ならぬはひとのなさぬ
　　　なりけり。
　　　勘弁ならない。
　　　容赦ならない。
　　　油断ならない。
　　　信用（信頼）ならない。
　　　ならなくば、しなくてもよし。

ーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーー
Ｂ．Ｉｔｏ
　　　



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