Re: Houkeru vs. bokeru

Ben Monroe wrote:
On Feb 13, 6:11 am, Bart Mathias <math...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

<snip>

ほうける is the first new Japanese word I've learnt all morning. (Or
relearnt? Who can remember...)


I recall it being discussed here a few months ago.
Oh, here it is:
http://groups.google.co.jp/group/sci.lang.japan/msg/fc4569e751ba448d
And what do you know, it was in response to you. :)


It's interesting because it is fairly obviously a vowel-lengthened--for
some kind of emphasis?--form of ほける;


I do not think it is fairly obvious.

類聚名義抄 has an entry for hohok-.
I suggest the following derivations:
hohok- > houk- > houke-
> hok- > hoke-

Sort of an interesting idea. None of my kogojiten picked up on that
"hohok-." Is there indication in Myougishou that it was yodan? I assume
you're hinting that when you write "houk- > houke-," where I assume you
are alluding to the shimonidan katsuyou. (But then I don't know how to
read "houke- > hok-.")

I don't get the "hohok- > houk-" part. I need a hint.

Also note the forms hog- and hoge-. The voicing is most likely an
effect of the onbin.

I don't get any of this either. Unfortunately I am well past the stage
where I could assume anything I didn't understand must be wrong.

But, does "note the forms hog- and hoge-" mean that the verb root-final
was nigori-ized both yodan and shimonidan? As an effect of what onbin?

I assume these lines are in reference to your posited derivative from
hohok-, but of course the prayer word also has a hog- alternate, notably
in kotohog-. And kotohog- alternates with kotobuk- (at least I've always
assumed these to be cognate).

I suppose the change of hok(e)- to bok(e)- ("...(e)-" is the way I
indicate shimoni) could be explained on the same lines as sama > zama,
etc. I await more details on the onbin leading to the hok- > hog- and
hok(e)- > hog(e)- shifts (assuming the seion version is really older; that
might be hard to prove, too.)

Bart

While OJ* does have a verb hok-, it is a different word meaning "pray"
or "curse".
With the above etymology, there is no need to consider cognates.

* To avoid confusion again, interpret OJ to be Japanese of the Nara
period.

Ben Monroe

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