Re: Passive Form

dareka wrote:
Bart Mathias wrote:

dareka wrote:

[...]

I doubt this explanation. I think what is された/られた is
nothing but the 鞄 "syntactically".

But it's not proper to say something like that and not go into the
difference between 鞄を盗まれた and 鞄がぬすまれた、"syntactically."


As I have said before I think the function を、が and others
have is rather *semantical* one than syntactical. And I think
を gives the word or phrase to which it is tacked an
semantically objective, in senses of both 目的語 and/or 客観
的, position in the sentence or discourse in relation to the
verb in the sentence or an action or state that the speaker
tries to explain or convey. は gives a subjective, in senses
of both 主語 and/or 主観的, position. が gives, I think at
least in this case, mixed subjective and objective position.
鞄は盗まれた and 鞄が盗まれた kind of sound like a title of a
story or a subject of discussion following the theft in that
you explain or discuss what you do after the loss of the 鞄.
鞄を盗まれた sounds like, in this case, an objective statement
of fact.

I'm almost sorry I said anything. :-)

If I ever believe syntax isn't "semantical" I won't be interested in
syntax anymore.

My interpretation is similar to, but slightly different from, yours.

鞄が盗まれた is something that happened, a dispassionate statement of fact.

鞄を盗まれた is something that happened *to someone.*

From what you say, I think you'll have to agree that この人はだれかに鞄が
盗まれた is a bit odd. But you would hold that the sentence structure itself
is normal?

Bart
.