Re: Passive Form

Bart Mathias wrote:
dareka wrote:
Bart Mathias wrote:

dareka wrote:

[...]
I doubt this explanation. I think what is された/られた is
nothing but the 鞄 "syntactically".
But it's not proper to say something like that and not go into the
difference between 鞄を盗まれた and 鞄がぬすまれた、"syntactically."

As I have said before I think the function を、が and others
have is rather *semantical* one than syntactical. And I think
を gives the word or phrase to which it is tacked an
semantically objective, in senses of both 目的語 and/or 客観
的, position in the sentence or discourse in relation to the
verb in the sentence or an action or state that the speaker
tries to explain or convey. は gives a subjective, in senses
of both 主語 and/or 主観的, position. が gives, I think at
least in this case, mixed subjective and objective position.
鞄は盗まれた and 鞄が盗まれた kind of sound like a title of a
story or a subject of discussion following the theft in that
you explain or discuss what you do after the loss of the 鞄.
鞄を盗まれた sounds like, in this case, an objective statement
of fact.

I'm almost sorry I said anything. :-)

If I ever believe syntax isn't "semantical" I won't be interested in
syntax anymore.

I meant by my usage of "semantical" that the word tacked by a
particle and the particle are not necessarily or solely linked
with the verb in the sentence but linked to what you is trying
to say. On the other hand, as for "syntactical", as in
"/usr/bin/rm -rf ~", ~ has to be the first argument and is
necessarily and solely linked with "/usr/bin/rm" and it is a
syntactical object.


My interpretation is similar to, but slightly different from, yours.

鞄が盗まれた is something that happened, a dispassionate statement of fact.

鞄を盗まれた is something that happened *to someone.*

I think the particles in themselves have no meaning and you
can get no meaning from them other than what the
functionalities they have imply when there is no context. So I
think there could be multiple possible interpretations. But I
think when I go to a police station and report the crime I
would say 鞄を盗まれました because saying 鞄が盗まれました
without being asked to say what happened might be taken as an
indicative of next or unspoken words that are what I really
want to say, which is of course さっさと鞄を探せ.


From what you say, I think you'll have to agree that この人はだれかに鞄が
盗まれた is a bit odd. But you would hold that the sentence structure itself
is normal?

Exactly, yes. But if the context is like 財布も一緒に盗まれた
ので家までの電車賃を貸してください, it is not even a bit odd
at all because apparently the point which you want to get
across to the police officer is what *is* stolen because it
links to the next request of 電車賃を貸してください.

--

dareka dareka@xxxxxxxxxxx
.

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