Re: さ attached to nouns

On Feb 22, 9:56 pm, "B. Ito" <jg2...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Ben Monroe" <bend...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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On Feb 22, 4:47 pm, "B. Ito" <jg2...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Ben Bullock" <benkasminbull...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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"Jim Breen" <j...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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I occasionally see さ attached to nouns, such as in the following from
Eijiro: "busy-work〔同義語として make-work がある。ただし busy-work
は、
*勤勉さ*や*多忙さ*の印象を人に与えることが強調されるが、make-work にはそ

のようなニュアンスはない〕"

This looks awfully like the adjective-nominalizing さ, although 勤勉
and
多忙 are nouns already. Is this happening because 勤勉 and 多忙 are
more
commonly used as な-adjectives?

Are they often used as nouns? I can't imagine "勤勉や多忙の印象" being
used here. Could someone provide an example of 勤勉 or 多忙 used as
nouns?

I looked in the WWWJDIC example sentences and only found things like

エジソンの成功は知性と勤勉との結果でもある。 [T]
We attribute Edison's success to intelligence and hard work.

勤勉は成功の母。 [T]
Diligence is the mother of good fortune.

These seem to be very formal, stiff sentences.

I looked for examples of 多忙 used as a noun but couldn't find anything
much.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Here is those noun examples in one sentence.

勤勉が多忙を生む。
Deligence causes busyness.
Diligence makes people busy.

--------------------------------------------------------------
（しかしながら）多忙さは必ずしも勤勉さに正比例するものではない。
(However ) The rate of the deligence isn't always in direct proportion
to
that of the busyness.

彼の多忙は勤勉からきている。
His busyness is the product of his diligence.

彼の勤勉さは大したもので。
(The rate of) his busyness is extraordinary. (He is deligent.)

彼の勤勉さは言うほどのものではない。
(The rate of) his busyness is not worth mentioning. (He is not so
deligent.)



勤勉さ and 多忙さ, I think, could be considered to be the two cases:

1) adjective - na + sa

2) noun + sa

Reasoning: The former cases always mean deligence and busyness.
However, the latter cases also include less dligence and less-busyness.

--------------------------------------------------------------
彼の勤勉さは言うには及ばない。
It goes without saying that he is very diligent. (Case 1)
It is not worth mentioning that he is any diligent at all. (Case 2)
(depending upon the context)



I must disagree.
-sa attaches to the 形容動詞 turning into a noun.
There is no need to re-nominalize (再名詞化？) a noun.

--------------------------------------------------------------
In this topic here, aren't we talking 'adjective' including '形容動詞' ,
because
it is like an adjective of predicative use type ?

勤勉 and 多忙 are both 名詞 and 形容動詞.
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%B6%D0%CA%D9&search_history=%C0%D6%A4%A4&kind=jn&kwassist=0&mode=0
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%C2%BF%CB%BB&search_history=%B6%D0%CA%D9&kind=jn&kwassist=0&mode=0

When you attach sa to either word, are you attaching it to the 名詞 or
the 形容動詞?
I argue for the 形容動詞, not the 名詞.
Continued below.

Re-nominalization （再名詞化） may often be meaningful like in the English
case
of 'beauty - beautiful - beautifulness' ?

noun -> adjective -> noun

But for 勤勉さ and 多忙さ, sa is attaching to the 形容動詞 turning each word
into a noun.
If it was already a noun, then adding sa to it would be like:
名詞 -> 名詞, which is not very useful.
That is what I meant by re-nominalization.

For noun forms, I suggest searching for 勤勉の and 多忙の.

Ben Monroe

------------------------------------------------------------
I think 'の' of 勤勉の'' and '多忙の' is some particle which has nothing
to do with the topic here.

Yes, it is a particle. It attaches to nouns, so it is a good test to
see if something is a noun.
Lets choose some regular nouns: 本, 車, and 鳥.
Attach の to them. 本のタイトル, 車の色, 鳥の羽
When you say 勤勉の or 多忙の, you are attaching の to the noun, just as with
all other nouns.

Now, lets try to attach さ to these words.
*本さ, *車さ, and *鳥さ.
These certainly do not make any sense (hence the *).
(Yes, I am aware of other usages of sa in which these could be
grammatical, but that is another topic.)

Lets look at it from the perspective of adjectives.
Common examples include: 赤い, 暑い, and 高い.
Try attaching の them. *赤いの車, *暑いの日, *（背の）高いの人.
None of these make any sense. (hence, again the *)
Lets try さ. 赤さ, 暑さ, 高さ. They all seem OK.

Summary:
1) sa attaches to adjectives, not nouns
2) no attaches to nouns, not adjectives

形容動詞 are a special in that they exhibit certain features of both
adjectives and nouns.
In this case, 勤勉 and 多忙 exist as both nouns （名詞） and 形容動詞.
(See above links.)
When you say 勤勉さ or 多忙さ, you are attaching sa to the 形容動詞, not the
noun.
When you say 勤勉の or 多忙の, you are attaching no to the noun, not the 形容動
詞.
The same rules apply.

Ben Monroe

.

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