Re: Nanitozo

On 2 May 2007 15:07:56 -0700, Cindy wrote:

Shitsurei shitemo yoroshiidesuka?

Absolutely, Cindy. Go ahead and be rude. I will rejoice.

I hope you realize that Cindy's expression is more polite than "Itte mo ii
desu ka?" You were the one to bring up illocutionary force. Here,
although the literal meaning suggests the speaker is going to be rude, the
illocutionary force is the opposite. It achieves politeness in several
ways. It uses the more polite yoroshii rather than ii. The question uses
the formal forms. The use of 'shitsurei' implies the speaker is humbling
herself by deferring to the listener. The implication is that the listener
is elevated and decides whether to excuse the speaker or not while the
speaker tacitly admits that departure might inconvenience the listener.

No, Phil, this is why they don't learn. They ask for a favor, so I
volunteer to help. In this case, John needed a phrase equivalent to
"May I go?" so, I provided a nice polite Japanese phrase. Then, what
happened? He told me to go ahead and be rude! Does he understand
this Japanese phrase? I don't know, but maybe. However, in my
experience, many English speakers have a tendency to fuzakeru during
the conversation especially with me. It doesn't seem to happen to
other male Japanese speakers. It must be it (to fuzakeru) about
John. Then, if I take it seriously, more than likely he will say
"Cindy doesn't have a sense of humor". Therefore, I have to act like
a hostess in a night club or a prostitute or something like that so
that nobody will be offended and probably I will be embarrassed and be
laughed at by those old-timers such as Sean and Jim and Ben and the
other Phil and Jeff and so on. You know many male English speakers
suck in their attitudes. It's obvious that they look down on me. You
must have noticed that I have a long thread of conversation with Mr.
Ito. He never treats me like those assholes English speakers. muchan
or Ueshiba-san doesn't do that either.

Itousan is a very valuable contributor to this group - I particularly like
his enka and song translations that allow us to explore Japanese language,
culture, and history. Muchan, like Itousan, provides great insight in both
Japanese language and English language topics. Ueshiba-san is a great
authority on many subjects and his posts always make me think. I have, in
all seriousness, called him my teacher even though recently we had
different views on the song 「不思議　うふふ」. He's probably right and I'm
probably wrong because he knows much more than I do. But maybe by some
small chance this is a case of 「藍より青し」 (笑).

You also are a valuable contributor. I like the casual, colloquial style
of your Japanese. It exposes the newsgroup to a different use of the
language - it helps make the Japanese in the newsgroup seem more alive.

I would like to suggest you give John another chance. I know he didn't
mean to be insulting. I do recognize he intruded in a very sensitive area
with regards to newsgroup etiquette. He included the poster's name in his
'humorous' response which is usually frowned upon. Nevertheless, I don't
believe he meant it as an affront. If I can be so bold as to put words in
his mouth, I think he used your name as a signal that you were sharing an
in-joke.

Since I am guilty far more often than he is at making non-funny 'jokes', I
can understand how an attempt at sharing a joke can have the exact opposite
result. If you look at the rest of his posts, I think you'll find this
faux pas to be a one-time occurrence. Maybe this is a case of 猿も木から落ちる -
so let him be a monkey for a day as penance. (BTW, I know you think word
processors are encouraging us to use too much kanji - should I have written
猿 in katakana?)

Phil Yff
.