Re: (Japan Times) Navigating the 'keigo' minefield

On Aug 5, 8:54 pm, Richard VanHouten <ric...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Cindy wrote:
On Aug 5, 1:11 pm, Richard VanHouten <ric...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Cindy wrote:
On Aug 4, 9:03 pm, Richard VanHouten <ric...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Cindy wrote:
On Aug 4, 7:31 pm, ax <anton....@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I did say Keigo is not my fancy. But I never mention about resorting
to rudeness..
Not using keigo doesn't mean I can't be as polite. It's all in you
aura.
You won't believe this, but if you don't use keigo, you are speaking
rude Japanese. If you don't want to learn keigo, don't start learning
Japanese from the beginning.
I suspect the article (and ax) are speaking only of 尊敬語 and 謙譲語
while you're also speaking of 丁寧語, so you're talking past each other.
This is really stupid. If you want to learn Japanese, you will have
to learn all 3 of them no matter you like them or not. Probably, most
of learners are not successful mastering them. It is one of the
reasons they don't want to use Japanese in public because they don't
want to make mistakes. I know one young man who used them correctly.
He's got to do it since he studied Japanese in the Tokyo University.
However, this is truly a nasty subject to conquer. Japanese learners
from other cultures must make up their minds to learn or quit and go
home. These are all related with Japanese culture. You have to use
the correct language when you face someone special. If you are able
to do that, you are respected. If you can't, you won't get what you
want such as an apartment, a bank account, a credit card, and so on.
I tell you, in Japan, you got to be polite and use correct language if
you want something. Especially when you have to confront to someone,
you'd better be very careful and watch what you say.
When I went to Japan this year, I had many occasions to see Japanese
people's politeness in Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Kyoto. My impression was
that their politeness is rather like "fear" than politeness. In
English speaking world, you can be polite boldly and confidently and
loudly and you are not supposed to show fear to anybody.
The thing is, most foreign learners (at least, those who learned in a
classroom) learn 丁寧語 first - 普通語 might not even be introduced to
them in the first semester. To them, 敬語 includes 尊敬語 and 謙譲語
only - the super-polite parts of Japanese, not the normal politeness of
丁寧語 that they started learning from day 1 of class.- Hide quoted text -

You don't feel them very meaningful, huh. Too bad.

I didn't say that. I'm just explaining that, from a foreign learner's
perspective, "not using keigo" does not amount to using the equivalent
of, to quote you, "Oi nee-chan, mizu kure!", "Sokono ossan, jamada
doke", "Uruseena, shizukani shiroyo" because 丁寧語 is, for them, the
basics they start learning from. 普通語 is an advanced topic, and what
is taught as 敬語 - that is, 尊敬語 and 謙譲語 - are even more advanced
topics.

If a foreinger refuses to use keigo, it makes Japanese speakers think
he would go that extreme - like skipping basics and wanting to able to
speak like rude Japanese men.

Sonkeigo, Kenjogo, Teineigo, Teichogo, and Bikago are 5 forms of
Keigo. Any sentence can transform according to each form. It's
really tough, I know. But, you got to learn them. If you don't want
to learn them, at least know them. Hint is -- it's all related with
mibun and depended on how many people are involved in the
conversation.

I might say that I had no need to use 敬語 during my year in Japan - but
then, as a US serviceman stationed on a US base and having no job
requirement to interact with the JNSDF stationed on the same base, I had
no need to use Japanese at all.-

You didn't have to use keigo because you were excused. To be more
precise, they didn't expect you to be able to use keigo. You are
acutally making me imagine this kind of conversation:

"General ga kimashita"

"General ga kaerimashita"

"General ha mizu ga nomitai"

"General ha ima toire"

Perfect Japanese, but it's comic.




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