Re: Learning a language

From: alexB (alexb7623_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 06/15/04 

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:20:48 -0400

"Eugene Holman" <holman@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-1506040119090001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> In article <N8OdneN3beX3Z1DdRVn-tw@comcast.com>, "AlexB"
> <alexB@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > "Eugene Holman" <holman@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:holman->
> > > Elaborating their own norms for English would also have given the
slaves
> > > the elements of a new social identity.
> >
> > What do you mean by that? Could you rephrase it in a plain English.
>
> The pioneering works in sociolinguistics, specifically Labov's studies of
> the centralization of the ay and aw variables in Martha's Vineyard and the
> reintroduction of post-vocalic-r in New York City during WW II, indicate
> that elaborating and adhering to a specific speech norm, often originally
> regarded as an idiosyncracy of pronunciation or usage, often suffices to
> distinguish "us" from "them". Similarly, the issue of why certain socially
> defined communities of English speakers insist on using stigmatized forms
> such as "I goes", "you goes", but "he go" is, once again, to be understood
> as a matter of in-group solidarity reinforced by vernacular norms.
> Expressing in-group solidarity by making certain selections as concerns
> vernacular norms is regarded as more important than speaking "properly"
> and thus weakening the repertoire of features that distinguish "us" from
> "them".
>
> > What
> > does it mean "elaborating their own norms for English?" What norms?
> > Grammatical norms of their previous language? How could they be
elaborated
> > for English?
>
> Norms that make it easy to distinguish "slaves' speech" from "masters'
> speech". These can come from a previous language, from foreigner's speech,
> or from universal language simplifying strategies. What is most important
> is not where they come from, but rather the fact that the innovations
> arising from any of these sources can and do establish themselves as
> alternative norms, actual linguistic changes that oust alternative norms.
> Due to the very different educational and social backgrounds of slaves and
> masters, there would have been numerous features of pronunciation,
> grammar, lexicon, and pragmatics which would have distinguished the norms
> of speech, grammar, and usage used by the two groups and reinforcing their
> specific linguistic identities and social distance.
>
> > I am beginning to get a feeling that making vague statements is
> > a norm in your profession.
>
> No, I am working on the assumption that most readers of sci.lang are
> familiar with basic linguistic terminology and thus do not need to have
> everything explained in minute detail.
>
> > Or perhaps it is an idiom of sorts? Don't bother
> > answering if you are making a sarcastic remark in here. Then it "makes
> > sense."
>
> No, I am not making sarcastic remarks. Slave societies are typically
> extremely hierarchical, and hierarchical social organization is typically
> reflected in and reinforced by different norms of usage. Read some of the
> early work in pre-Labovian sociolinguistics (or sociology of language, if
> you will) by J. J. Gumperz, such as his important 1958 article "Dialect
> Differences and Social Stratification in a North Indian Village".
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman

Thanks for explaining. I appreciate it. I will have to read it 5 more times
at least to get a sense (perhaps) of some fine print. There is also a huge
gap between us and ultimately it boils down to how differently our minds
work. It is aside from the fact that I am totally ignorant in the matters
you are talking about. My hope is to catch the pith.

I want to use this opportunity to test your theory. I will give it a
touchstone. But first I want to rephrase the key part to make sure I
understood it correctly. You are saying that what happened at Martha's
Vineyard can be used as a model to the fact that a separate pidgin English
(apart from a standard English) was developed 300 years ago by the African
slaves in America. You are saying that their sole motivation was to
distinguish themselves, to set themselves apart. I assume it for granted
that I am correct in interpreting what you said this way, if not, disregard
the rest of the message.

Now, using your theory please explain the first and second consonant shifts
in Germany during the Middle Ages. The Second one is the Grim' Law, I
reckon. Was it that the whole nation was driven by the desire to set itself
apart from itself?

Regards, - A

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Learning a language
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  • Re: Learning a language
    ... >> Elaborating their own norms for English would also have given the slaves ... >> the elements of a new social identity. ... >> language of the slaves would embark on its own path of evolution. ...
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  • Re: Learning a language
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