Re: Surname first vs last
From: Tak To (takto_at_alum.mit.edu.-)
Date: 07/02/04
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Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:34:49 -0400
LEE Sau Dan wrote:
>>>>>>"Sean" == Sean O'Leathlobhair <jwlawler+AEA-yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
> Sean> Do any westerners do the reverse?
>
> Yes, but seldom.
>
>
> Sean> Have you met westerners living in China who adjust their
> Sean> names to Chinese conventions?
>
> Yes. Some gov. officials in (still) HK, who are Westerners, have got
> Chinese names. Their Chinese names are always used with surname
> first. They even try their best to find a one-character surname that
> is also a Chinese surname and 2-character given name with a good
> meaning, making their Chinese names hard to distinguish from an
> ordinary Chinese name.
>
> Examples:
> +lBiQOFCR- -- retired civil servant. Formerly the Chief Secretary
Mandarin: <zhong1 yi4 jie2>
Cantonese: <dzong55 yat2 git2>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "quiet" +ACs- "hero"
English: David Akers-Jones
Comment: Apparently +lBg- <zhong1> is transcribed from "Jon[es]" and +kDhQkQ- <yat2
git2> from "Ake[rs]". The HK government typically transcribes only
from last name and uses the Cantonee pronunciation. That the
transcriber chose to reverse the two parts of the surname was a
bit unusual.
> +gtdbeHmu- -- the chief of the housing department.
Mandarin: <Miao2 Xue2 Li3>
Cantonese: <miu21 hok2 lai23>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "learn" +ACs- "rite/etiquette"
English: J Anthony Miller
Comment" +gtc- <miu21> comes from "Mil[ler]" and +ea4- <lai23> from "[Mil]ler". The
+W3g- <hok2> is just a fill in so as to make the name meaningful.
> +m09ft13N- -- David Wilson. Former HK Governor.+ACo-
Mandarin: <wei4 de2 wei1>
Cantonese: <ngai22 dak5 ngai21>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "virtue" +ACs- "lofty"
Comment: As noted by Sau Dan, Wilson chose this himself as he was learning
Mandarin. So <wei3> comes from "Wil[son]" and <de2 wei1> from
"Davi[d]".
> +hEmTK2sj- -- former District Council member (a missionary)
+hEmTKw- >+YGk-<
Mandarin: <ye4 xi1 en1>
Cantonese: <yip2 sek3 yan55>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "bestow" +ACs- "grace/favor"
English: Elsie Elliott
Comment: +hEk- <ye4>/<yip2> comes from "E[lliott]". +kytgaQ- <xi1 en1>/<sek3 yan55>
seems to have more to do with her faith than "Elsie"; unless
+kys- <xi1> is from "[El]sie".
> Another historical person:
>
> +UimZrHrH- -- Mateo Ricci (Jesuit?)
+Uik- >+dGo-< +esc-
Mandarin: <li4 ma3 dou4>
Cantonese: <lei22 ma23 dou22>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "agate" +ACs- "hole"
Comment: +Uik- <li4> comes from "Ri[cci]" and +dGp6xw- <ma3 dou4> from "Matteo".
However, +dGp6xw- <ma3 dou4> is not particularly meaningful as a
personal name.
For comparison, other Jesuits missionaries from more or less
the same period:
+bm+C5Wcb-
Mandarin: <tang1 ruo4 wang4>
Cantonese: <tong55 yuek3 mong33>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "follow" +ACs- "hope"
English: Johan Adam Schall von Bell
Comment: +guVnGw- <ruo4 wang4> comes from "Johan" and is the standard
transcription used by the Catholic Church nowadays for that
Christian name. +bm8- <tang1> comes from "[A]dam".
+U1dh907B-
Mandarin: <nan2 huai2 ren2>
Cantonese: <nam21 wai21 yan21>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "cherish" +ACs- "benevolence"
English: Ferdinand Verbiest
Comment: I guess +U1c- <nan2> comes from "[Ferdi]nan[d]". Not sure about
+YfdOwQ- <huai2 ren2>.
Note that all three have also adopted a Chinese +W1c- <zi4> or "common name
(one that is used by people of the same generation/rank; as the formal name
+VA0- <ming2> is used only by parents or superiors). Ricci's is +iX9s8A- <xi1 tai4>,
probably a play on +bPCJfw- <tai4 xi1> -- "West" +ACs- "Exalted", the general term for
the occidental at that time. Shall von Bell's is +kFNnKg- <dao4 wei4>+/ww-a clever
exerpt from a paragraph in Mencius. Verbiest's is +ZWZPLw- <dun1 bo2> -- "honest"
+ACs- "older fellow", a variation on the +TsE- <ren2> theme; or +ZWY- <dun1> could be
from "[Fer]din[and]". He also has another +UttTfw- <xun1 qing1> (<fan55 hing1>
in Cantonese -- "Merit/Decoration" +ACs- "fellow". +Uts- <Xun1>/<fan55> could be
from "Fer[dinand]".
> Don't ask me for the English names of these celebrities in HK. I only
> know them by the Chinese names.
See above.
> [+ACo-] This was David Wilson's Chinese name when he learnt Mandarin. (He
> speaks Mandarin but not Cantonese.) When he took up the job of
> the HK Governor, the HK Government Information Services department
> created a new Chinese name for him: +iFtZVYIc-
+iFtZVQ- >+T+E-<
Mandarin: <wei4 yi4 xin4>
Cantonese: <wai22 yik2 soen33>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "grand" +ACs- "trust"
Comment: +iFs- <wai22> comes from "Wil[son]" and +T+E- <soen33> from
"[Wil]son".
More ex-governers of Hong Kong for comparison:
+Z896y1f6-
Mandarin: <bo4 li4 ji1>
Cantonese: <pak3 lap2 gei55>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "establish" +ACs- "foundation"
English: Robert Black
Comment: +Z88- <pak3> from "B[lack]", +ess- <lap2> from "[B]lac[k]" and
+V/o- <gei55> from "Blac[k]". Note that +Z88- <pak3> is a rare
surname but its meaning -- a type of tree known for its
ability to endurance winter -- goes well with "establishing
foundation".
+YjSen42+-
Mandarin: <dai4 lin2 zhi3>
Cantonese: <dai33 loen21 dzi35>
Meaning: [surname] +ACs- "Chinese unicorn" +ACs- "hoof"
English: David Trench
Comment: +YjQ- <dai33> from "T[rench]", +np8- <loen21> from "[T]ren[ch]"
and +jb4- <dzi35> from "[Tren]ch". The hoof of the Chinese
unicorn is mentioned often in the Classics, but ironically,
most people in Hong Kong were unaware of the reference to
the old.
Tak
-- ----------------------------------------------------------------+ACs------ Tak To takto+AEA-alum.mit.eduxx --------------------------------------------------------------------+AF4AXg- [taode takto +AH4Aew-LU5B+AH4AfQ-] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
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