Re: What's the different between /tS/ as one phoneme and as two?

From: Tor (tor826_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 07/21/04 

Date: 20 Jul 2004 18:42:30 -0700

Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@wxs.nl> wrote in message news:<8ippf0do416sqs7hd6vu1l9peffbeumjvn@4ax.com>...
> On 19 Jul 2004 16:17:03 -0700, tor826@yahoo.com (Tor) wrote:
>
> >Nathan Sanders <nsanders.DIE.SPAM@wso.williams.edu> wrote in message news:<nsanders.DIE.SPAM-168936.12514319072004@news.verizon.net>...
> >
> >> Essentially, an English /b/ at the beginning of a word is acoustically
> >> similar to a French /p/ at the beginning of a word.
> >
> >If so, you'd expect French people to have a tendency to misinterpret
> >English words beginning with /b/. They'd often hear <bill> as <pill>,
> >for example. But I'm not aware of French people having this
> >difficulty.
> >
> >
> >> There is no significant vocal cord vibration in English plosives at
> >> the beginning of a word.
> >
> >I don't quite agree. I think the voicing is a little reduced, but
> >still significant enough to play a role in distinguishing /p/ from
> >/b/.
>
> It's not a question of agreeing or not, it's a question of
> looking at the spectograms. There is no voicing at the
> onset of English voiced /b/. Voicing, or better said, VOT
> (Voice Onset Time) of course *does* play a role in
> distinguishing /p/ from /b/. In the case of /b/, vocal
> chord vibrations begin at around the transition from /b/ to
> the following vowel. In the case of initial /p/,
> voicelessness is maintained well into the following vowel
> (this is perceived as aspiration: [h] is equivalent to any
> voiceless vowel).
>
>
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> mcv@wxs.nl

You are quite right. What I mean by "voicing" here is a VOT that is
earlier than the VOT of French initial [p], [t], or [k], which I'm
taking as the standard for a voiceless, unaspirated stop.

My first assertion is that the average VOT of English initial [b] is
earlier than the average VOT of French initial [p], and that this
difference and the difference in muscular tension are usually
noticeable to both English and French speakers.

My second assertion is that the VOT of an English [b] is earlier
enough relative to the VOT of a French [p] for this additional voicing
to make a difference in distinguishing English /b/ from English /p/.
Hence I would not call English /b/ a voiceless unaspirated stop as I
would call French /p/.

When English speakers hear a French [p], they don't usually think it's
in the range of English /b/. They usually notice that it's different
from both English /b/ and English /p/, but they don't know what to do
with it. Sometimes they assign it to English /b/ and sometimes they
assign it to English /p/.

Tor

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