Re: Chinese & Maya writing systems

From: Dylan Sung (dylanwhs.tsktsktsk_at_pacific.net.hk)
Date: 08/25/04 

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:06:30 +0100

"Yuri Kuchinsky" <yuku@trends.ca> wrote in message
news:412A51F8.6DDF0B2A@trends.ca...
> Dylan Sung wrote
> in article <2op5idFcg315U1@uni-berlin.de>:
> >
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:4125217F.693D@worldnet.att.net...
> > > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
> > > > As to the connections between Chinese and Maya writing, it's
> > > > simply the matter of observation. One doesn't need to
> > > > subscribe to any theory to observe these similarities.
> > >
> > > I will ask you a third time. What are these similarities?
> >
> > They both fit into squarish blocks. Each have elements which get
> > repeated in other glyphs. They're glyphs and have variants. They're
> > used for writing their own languages. There are pictographic
> > elements in each writing. There are phonetic elements in each
> > writing system. That they have so much in common, they must be
> > related or something.... Moreover the people of both cultures use
> > jade, that clinches it. They must be one and the same in origin...
> > Somehow, the Koreans may have something to do with it, dongyi or
> > something.
> >
> > :P
> > Dyl.
>
> Hello, Dylan,
>
> You're got a pretty comprehensive list here of the
> similarities which really should be rather obvious.
>
> Such as,
>
> -- They're glyphs and have variants.
> -- Each have elements which get repeated in other glyphs.
> -- They both fit into squarish blocks.
> -- There are pictographic elements in each writing.
> -- There are phonetic elements in each writing system.
>
> Too bad that for some here all this is complete news... :)
>
> Since these two writing systems seem to have quite a few
> things in common, they might be related in some way. But
> this is a matter of debate...
>

I'm afraid that you have misconstrued the tone in which my message was
conveyed. With regard to the points I mentioned, they are only surface
similarities as others have endeavoured to point out to you. I don't believe
in any way that the two writing systems are the same, or similar other than
what a cursory inspection of the two scripts reveals.

> You also note that the people of both cultures use jade. But
> this is just one of dozens of such things that connects
> them. Have you ever read Needham and Gwei-Djen?
>
> Joseph Needham, Lu Gwei-Djen, TRANS-PACIFIC ECHOES AND
> RESONANCES: LISTENING ONCE AGAIN. Singapore; Philadelphia:
> World Scientific, 1985.
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive listing of the cultural
> parallels between China and the Americas, with an additional
> bibliography.
>
> On p. 16, Needham and Gwei-Djen write that these parallels
> between Chinese and Maya writing have been first commented
> upon already nearly two centuries ago, in 1813, by Alexander
> von Humboldt.
>

Again, I find the similarities dubious, as are the theories that Shang China
may be a source of MesoAmerican culture which made the rounds some while
ago.

My personal thoughts about the similarities is that they are independent
developments. Of the stones available, jade or jadite is relatively easy to
carve and polish, again they can be independent discoveries.

> They also comment upon the similarities in the reading order
> between Chinese and Maya writing (something you failed to
> note).
>
> The Mayan hieroglyphics were generally written in paired
> vertical columns; they read from left to right, and then top
> to bottom, in a sort of a zigzag pattern.
>

The reading order in Maya is different to that of Chinese. In carved Maya
inscriptions, someone has already pointed out the order

(if a Maya glyph is represented by a roman letter, the order alphabetically
would be)

A B K L
C D M N
E F O P
G H Q R
I J S T

There is also the weave pattern order in some Maya inscriptions which is not
found in Chinese.

> As I understand it, the reading order in the ancient Chinese
> was similar if not the same.

No. Chinese has been written in columns since shell and bone (oracle bone)
inscriptions, but always one column at a time. This survived until modern
times.

16 11 6 1
17 12 7 2
18 13 8 3
19 14 9 4
20 15 10 5

In shell and bone inscriptions, there is also the following order which is
also seen in modern publications

1 6 11 16
2 7 12 17
3 8 13 18
4 9 14 19
5 10 15 20

and in modern publications, it is common to see

.1 2 3 4 5
.6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20

Moreover, in some modern publications of the last century or so, you see
that single line text may be read

5 4 3 2 1

All these follow either one line or one column at a time.

Dyl.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Chinese & Maya writing systems
    ... >> used for writing their own languages. ... > between Chinese and Maya writing have been first commented ... and in modern publications, ...
    (sci.anthropology)
  • Re: Chinese & Maya writing systems
    ... >> used for writing their own languages. ... > between Chinese and Maya writing have been first commented ... and in modern publications, ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Chinese & Maya writing systems
    ... >> You haven't named ANY features that are peculiar to Chinese and Maya ... > Numerous features of Chinese and Maya writing parallel each ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Chinese & Maya writing systems
    ... >> You haven't named ANY features that are peculiar to Chinese and Maya ... > Numerous features of Chinese and Maya writing parallel each ...
    (sci.anthropology)
  • Re: Chinese & Maya writing systems
    ... >> You haven't named ANY features that are peculiar to Chinese and Maya ... > Numerous features of Chinese and Maya writing parallel each ...
    (sci.lang)