Re: Can anyone translate English to Aramaic?

From: Peter T. Daniels (grammatim_at_worldnet.att.net)
Date: 08/25/04 

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:50:33 GMT

Pieter wrote:

> > > Just asking and I'll probably make a fool of myself & this discussion
> > > will likely go on forever with such esoteric compounds, but if we accept
> > > for a minute that Jesus if he ever existed had at least some relation to
> >
> > There's no reason to suppose Jesus didn't exist, but the connection of
> > Qumran with "Essenes" specifically is regarded more and more as a leap
> > to conclusions by the first excavator. (Some scholars do still hold to
> > that position, though.)
> >
> > > the Essenes, what language were the Dead Sea scrolls or various other
> > > apocrypha written in?
> >
> > What does "apocrypha" mean to you?
> >
> > Most of the non-biblical DSS texts are in Hebrew; a handful of the
> > commentaries are in Aramaic.
> >
> > Luther separated out the biblical books for which no Hebrew original was
> > known in his time as "deuterocanonical" and segregated them in his Bible
> > translation, but still included them; later generations of Protestants
> > excluded them from the canon.
> >
> > For most of them, the Greek text shows indisputable signs of being
> > translated from Hebrew, and part of the Hebrew text of Ecclesiasticus
> > was discovered in the 19th century.
> >
> > > And were they entirely unfamiliar, in the light of
> > > Messianic prophesies, and assuming for a moment that JC believed himself
> > > to be the fulfillment of those prophecies, with such concepts as the
> > > ones at hand, I repeat:
> > >
> > > "When my day is upon us, a chosen one shall be reborn of body and
> > > spirit."
> > >
> > > I have an old translation of the Scrolls right here but I have a feeling
> > > Peter Daniels can put me right straightaway.
> >
> > The definitive translation of the DSS (for the time being) is the one by
> > Martinez published by Brill and Eerdmans.
> > --
>
> OK to sum up, btw by apocrypha I mean the non-canonical Biblical books,
> I thought that was the general meaning, correct me if I'm wrong:

You said "the DSS or various other apocrypha." The DSS aren't apocrypha.

> I know about the controversy surrounding the Essenes. Still, Essenes or
> not, I believe it is widely thought that Jesus -- again, if he
> existed -- had some (possibly a close) relation to the people of Qumran,

Why "if he existed," and why do you believe that that's "widely
thought"? I think it's an attractive suggestion that was made 50 years
ago, but I don't think anyone takes it seriously.

> and that whether he existed or not those people were instrumental in the
> early evolution of the Jewish sect which would eventually come to be
> known as Christianity. Again, feel free to correct me.

You'd need to study hundreds of volumes from the last fifty years on the
Judaism and Christianity of the period.

> You say some of the commentaries in the Dead Sea Scrolls are in Aramaic.
> Or am I mistaken and does this not refer to the texts found there? (You
> also said we only have the stuff in Greek. Now you're saying it's all
> soundly based on Hebrew. Or am I wrong?)

You're confusing yourself. Among the DSS are the "Genesis Apocryphon"
and the "Job Targum." Those are the main pieces that are in Aramaic.

The Apocrypha (the books segregated by Luther) are known in Greek but
mostly had (lost) Hebrew originals.

> But to stick to the Aramaic: I assume those commentaries have been
> translated or at least interpreted. If so, it follows that we have some
> idea of the Aramaic spoken at the place at the time. Again, correct me
> if I'm wrong.

Of course. A few centuries before Jesus, it would seem.

> The remaining question would then be, is it unthinkable that Jesus, had
> he existed, with a view to the religious beliefs ascribed to him and
> those of the sects he is thought to have related to, and keeping in mind
> that according to some he knew his end was coming and that he had failed
> to fulfill the Messianic prophecy, and having himself been baptized
> before he could set out to do his work if that is not a later Christian
> invention, would speak of a concept such as the one at hand, and I quote
> Dan:
>
> <quote>
>
> Quote: "When my day is upon us, a chosen one shall be reborn of body
> and spirit."
>
> Meaning: "Before I (Jesus) return to Earth, a 'chosen' person will be
> re-baptized to prepare for my coming."
>
> <unquote>

That's a question for theologians.

If Jesus might have said such a thing, we don't know how he would have
said it. 

-- 
Peter T. Daniels                       grammatim@att.net

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