Re: universal concept list

From: Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' ) (stderr2_at_backpacker.com)
Date: 08/29/04 

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:31:51 -0700

benlizross wrote:
>
> Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' ) wrote:
> >
> > benlizross wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' ) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Brian M. Scott" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:57:08 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo
> > > > > Gloria'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote in
> > > > > <news:4130D584.7EDCD74D@backpacker.com> in sci.lang:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "Brian M. Scott" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:37:25 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo
> > > > > >> Gloria'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote in
> > > > > >> <news:41307C85.19132931@backpacker.com> in sci.lang:
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> "John A. Rea" wrote:
> > > > > >>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> Marc Adler wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >> [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>>>>On a related note, anyone know of any good Finnish word frequency lists
> > > > > >>>>>>(besides the 10,000-word behemoth floating around on the internet which
> > > > > >>>>>>is useless since all the words are in their declined/conjugated forms)?
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>> For a limited set of languages, try Carl Darling Buck's "A selected list
> > > > > >>>> of synonyms in the principal Indo-European Languages."
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> Gosh I find that book frustrating. What I don't understand is why he
> > > > > >>> does what is seemingly always done, he seeks out words from the current
> > > > > >>> meaning backwards instead of from the root forwards.
> > > > >
> > > > > >> How else? Divine revelation?
> > > > >
> > > > > > The two ways are from the current meaning backwards, in which case you
> > > > > > often end up with many roots and different ones in different languages,
> > > > > > or, as I said above, from the root in question forward.
> > > > >
> > > > > You're completely missing the point. How are you going to
> > > > > get information about the root except by looking at attested
> > > > > forms with known meanings?
> > > > >
> > > > There are plenty of examples of words that have changed meanings over
> > > > time. So, for example, say we are looking at the English word 'cow' and
> > > > we want to know if that word can be connected to other words in related
> > > > languages, not just whether those connections mean the same thing in
> > > > those languages, 'cow'
> > >
> > > Right. But Buck does tell you (in the notes after the list of synonyms)
> > > which words are cognate with each other, and what sort of IE root they
> > > come from.
> > >
> > But if the words aren't cognates, then one root isn't being explained on
> > the page, rather one meaning. See, I'd like to know if I learn a word
> > in, say, Italian, if that same basic word, perhaps with a different
> > meaning, is in French and Spanish.
>
> So now you have defined another task you might be wanting to undertake,
> and you should not be surprised that you may need another book. In this
> case, since Buck includes Italian in his listings, you would be able to
> find out from Buck what other languages have cognates of that word with
> the same meaning,
>
I didn't claim that his book wasn't useful just that it didn't directly
answer my question about following roots forward. If this is how it
works, then I don't understand what comparative linguistics is about.

> and if there is a root cited you would be able to
> check the other books I mentioned to find a fuller story on its semantic
> developments. Or you could find an Italian etymological dictionary.
>
What I don't get is why there isn't a book that deals with this. I guess
I know that some books are geared towards learning languages, I guess
that is what it is, and they therefore want to tell you what the word
for whatever is in each of a select number of languages.

 
> >
> > > So if you start with "cow", you can get that much information
> > > from Buck. In fact any large dictionary with decent etymologies will
> > > give you the PIE source, and might even throw in a cognate from Latin or
> > > Sanskrit for free. Then if you want to know more detail about everything
> > > that happens to this root, you would have to look at one of the works I
> > > mentioned in my other post.
> > >
> > I am talking about following the root forward. If there are books that
> > do that, the Buck book isn't one of them.
>
> No, it's not. But see the other books. Of course in order to follow the
> root forward you must first know what the root is.
>
Sure. You could say that these are the roots that made it to English,
let's see what they mean in eleven different languages that include
them. That's interesting, isn't it? 

-- 
"And he did bring them. It took a number of years, but one by one he
brought them here. Except for his father, that old man died where he was
born." -+ "Elia Kazan, "America, America"

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