Re: Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said it did?
From: Hagen (dan5mark_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 09/27/04
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:25:53 +0200
On 27 Sep 2004 00:12:14 -0700, frgn@bluemail.ch (Franz Gnaedinger)
wrote:
>frgn@bluemail.ch (Franz Gnaedinger) wrote in message news:<2bf25455.0409222256.48141ae1@posting.google.com>...
>
>Peter T. Daniels: "Did the Trojan war really happen the way<
>Homer said it did?" someone had asked a long time ago. I replied
>by a counter-question: What did Homer actually say? Then I
>explained that many figures in Homer's Odyssey can be understood
>as symbols: Odysseus was a symbol of military power and seafaring
>skills in around 1200 BC; his wife's name Penelope is a pun on
>the Peloponnese; his father Lord Laertes, a gardener, was a symbol
>of Middle Helladic Achaia, and more precisely of eponymous Tiryns;
>his son Telemachos was a symbol of Greece in the time of the
>Messenian wars; and the strange places Odysseus comes to are Troy
>combined with other places and periods of times, and his travels
>are actually dreams that bring him back to Troy over and over
>again ... I gave a résumé of these ideas, and then I went for
>a new adventure: It is hardly satisfying if only some figures
>in Homer's Odyssey are symbols and others not, so let us look out
>for further symbolical figures. I was lucky enough to find these:
>Ino, a symbol of writing and poetry. Beautiful Helen of the white
>arms a symbol of tin ingots, and her glittering long robes she made
>by herself a symbol of ships loaded with the tin ore cassiterite;
>her husband xanthos Menelaos a symbol of copper (the color xanthos
>covering all shades of copper ore, from yellow via red to auburn);
>their daughter lovely Hermione, who resembled golden Aphrodite,
>a symbol of the copper and tin alloy bronze; a slave woman, the
>mistress of Menelaos, a symbol of aurichalcit, a natural alloy
>of copper and tinc - tinc in enslaved form, so to speak; and the
>son of the slave woman and Menalaos, late come strong Megapenthes,
>a symbol of brass, the alloy of copper and tinc. Circe an evocation
>of the Goddess and civilization of Old Europe. Then, in past June,
>I had a notion that many or perhaps all pictograms on the Phaistos
>Disk may be read as pictures, and the fields might convey visual
>messages modulated over the verbal ones, namely the texts as
>deciphered and translated by Derk Ohlenroth in the early 1980s.
>I succeeded in reading the first six fields on the Tiryns side
>of the Phaistos Disk as visual messages, I had a good feeling
>about it (whereas, when I go astray, I am getting warned by an
>almost physical sensation, sort of a headache which doens't really
>hurt but is very unpleasant), and so I decided to go for all 31 +
>30 = 61 fields. One by one, online, just sailing over the wide
>expanse of water, so to speak, either succeeding, and arriving
>at the shore of the next island, or drowning ... Doing actual
>research, online, never really knowing what comes next ...
>I hope to finish this long series of messages this week.
I didn't really followed this imposing thread all along, but your
perculiar headaches in the midst of June could have been avoided, if
just you were aware of my interpretation
O.H.
> Then >I shall give a summary (the Middle Helladic Achaeans haven't
>just been bloody warmongers, their main interest was agriculture,
>at least in the time of eponymous Tiryns, and seafaring, too).
>Hereupon I shall begin a short series of messages on language;
>no research, a recapitulation of old ideas of mine. But then
>we shall head for another series of messages that are intended
>as online research again: If all the human figures and even many
>animals in Homer's Odyssey are symbols, then what about the gods
>and goddesses? could they be projections of something deep inside
>ourselves? Modern biology gives us a clue as to what humans always
>have been and still are projeting on the sky, onto the heavens ...
>
>
>Last week I helped a friend of mine in house and garden, on Sunday
>I counted votes, and I took over the flat and look after the cats
>of a woman who spends her holidays in the lovely island of Paros.
>I have not been able to prepare my announced message, and so I
>postpone the interpretation of field 26 on the Elaia side of the
>Phaistos Disk for next time, hopefully tomorrow.
>
>Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
>
>
>> Peter T. Daniels: years ago I went to my astrologer and asked
>> her if anyone will ever be interested in my work? She lit a
>> candle, drew the curtains, took place behind her Fine Magic
>> Crystal Ball (tradem. reg.), had a long look, eventually gave
>> a sigh and told me I am a hopeless case. Nobody will ever be
>> interested in my work. Not until around 2011 or 2012, when a
>> young couple shall stumble over a publication of mine, and so
>> the best would be if I took every chance for publishing, also
>> chances others ignore and dismiss. Well then, I publish my work
>> and my ideas where I can, for example in the Usenet. You guys
>> would never publish a new idea in the Usenet, you edus and
>> highbrows are much too good for such a thing. I am glad for
>> that opporutnity, and I write for people who are seriously
>> interested in those topics - basically for that young couple
>> who will stumble over a publication of mine. I write for them,
>> and for others who are seriously interested. Not for those who
>> wish to play fox and rabbit, aka edu and kook; not for those
>> who indulge in textbook fetishism; not for those who start and
>> maintain neverending metastasing meta-discussions; and surely
>> not for someone who is molesting and defaming me since years,
>> and now perhaps even summoned the law against me. And what
>> concerns you, Peter T. Daniels: you told me that you are not
>> interested in my work, so why do you show up in here?
>>
>> The Usenet is here to be used, scientific groups are meant for
>> scientific purposes, and the component "new" in newsgroup tells
>> me that new ideas and approaches should get a chance.
>>
>> Now let me go on with my adventure of interpreting the Phaistos
>> Disk on the basis of Derk Ohlenroth's decipherment. His trans-
>> lations of the Tiryns side and Elaia side may be understood as
>> the main melodies, around which minor melodies are centered,
>> provided by the ideograms. Nobody cared and cares about the
>> pictures. I do.
>>
>>
>> Field E 25 on the Elaia side of the Phaistos Disk, Evans 43 18
>> 23 16, Ohlenroth O S L AE (omega sigma lambda aetha), yields
>> OSLAE = noble, epithet of Nyx
>>
>> http://www.seshat.ch/home/tiryns.GIF
>>
>> Evans 43, Ohlenroth O (omega), is new: a triangle containing
>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 = 21 dots, which may represent fruit and refer
>> to horaia (beginning with an aspirated omega) = fruit.
>>
>> Evans 18, Ohlenroth S (sigma), shows an angle and refers to
>> sanis = board, plank, writing table, scaffold, door ...
>> a hommage to the shrines of the Goddess of Old Europe and
>> the villages of the early farmers.
>>
>> Evans 23, Ohlenroth L (lambda), shows a pillar and refers
>> to lithos = stone, suiting the grotto of Elaion Oros near
>> Phigalia, where a wooden statue of Black Demeter Melaina
>> was kept and worshipped.
>>
>> Evans 16, Ohlenroth AE (aetha), shows a bronze knive and
>> refers to haenops (beginning with an aspirated aetha) =
>> shining, blank, smooth, polished, bright.
>>
>> We may imagine eponymous Tiryns paying visit to the shrine
>> of the Goddess, Black Demeter Melaina, in the grotto of
>> Elaion Oros near Phigalia, wearing a bronze knive as emblem
>> of his power, and offering ripe, sweet and juicy fruit to
>> the priestesses of Nyx. "Noble" is an epithet of Nyx, which
>> may also indicate a high age and thus refer to her mother
>> Black Demeter Melaina, the Arcadian Elaia, and via her
>> to the vegetation goddess of Old Europe.
>>
>>
>> Next time: E 26
>>
>> Regards Franz Gnaedinger
>>
>>
>>
>> > Field 24 on the Elaia side of the Phaistos Disk, Evans 33 39 1 13,
>> > Ohlenroth A I K I (alpha iota kappa iota), yields A of SKIERA
>> > followed by IKI
>> >
>> > http://www.seshat.ch/home/tiryns.GIF
>> >
>> > Evans 33, Ohlenroth A (alpha), shows a fish and refers to halios
>> > (beginning with an aspirated alpha) = pertaining to the sea.
>> >
>> > Evans 39, Ohlenroth I (iota), shows an olive twig and refers to
>> > hieros (beginning with an aspirated iota) = sacred, divine, sent
>> > by god. Or by a goddess. Elaia means olive. Elaia the goddess
>> > provided the Minoans and Achaeans with the precious gift of
>> > the edible olive. The gold ring from Mokhlos shows the Cretan
>> > Elaia perched on a boat, behind her a sacred olive tree protected
>> > by a fence. A similar olive tree, a sacred tree inside a fence,
>> > might well have stood in Elaia's grove at Phigalia:
>> >
>> > http://www.seshat.ch/home/elaia.GIF
>> >
>> > Evans 1, Ohlenroth K (kappa), shows a walking man and refers to
>> > katabaino = I descend. Here it means Lycaion Zeus or his "son"
>> > eponymous Tiryns descending from Mount Lycaion in southern
>> > Arcadia.
>> >
>> > Evans 13, Ohlenroth I (iota), shows a tree ideogram and refers
>> > to itea = willow. There might well have been willow trees along
>> > the river Neda in southern Arcadia.
>> >
>> > Field E 24 is part of the evocation of Nyx, whose priestesses
>> > gave oracles in Elaia's grove at Phigalia. Phigalia is placed
>> > on the river Neda. Fish and olive twig may thus refer to
>> > Phigalia. Eponymous Tiryns, I believe, came from Lycosoura
>> > further up the river Neda. On the Tiryns side of the Phaistos
>> > Disk he declares to be the equal of Lycaion Zeus, who is the
>> > equal of the shining Zeus from Tiryns; he is a "son" of the
>> > Lycaion Zeus, and every emanation of Zeus is the same god.
>> > The Lycaion Zeus was worshipped on peak Diaphorti of Mount
>> > Lycaion. Field E 24 may show eponymous Tiryns descending
>> > from Mount Lycaion and paying visit to Elaia's grove at
>> > Phigalia on the river Neda, where he may get an oracle
>> > by a priestess of Nyx, daughter of Poseidon, whose realm
>> > was the water (fish), and of the Arcadian Elaia known as
>> > Black Demeter Melaina, a vegetation goddess (present in the
>> > willow tree and the similar olive tree, and so the presence
>> > of Nyx would be indicated for a knowing beholder of the
>> > disk by the secret evocation of her parents).
>> >
>> >
>> > Next time: E 25
>> >
>> > Regards Franz Gnaedinger
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Field 23 on the Elaia side of the Phaistos Disk, Evans 18 (with
>> > > a thorn) 1 13 7 15, Ohlenroth S_ K I E R A (sigma kappa iota
>> > > epsilon rho alpha), yields SKIERA
>> > >
>> > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/tiryns.GIF
>> > >
>> > > Evans 18 (with a thorn), Ohlenroth S_ (sigma_) shows a wooden
>> > > angle and comes from sanis = board, plank, writing table, scaffold,
>> > > door ... A hommage to the shrines of the Goddess of Old Europe
>> > > and the villages of the early farmers, emphasized by the thorn.
>> > >
>> > > Evans 1, Ohlenroth K (kappa), shows a walking man and comes from
>> > > katabaino = I descend, here meaning Zeus descending from peak
>> > > Diaphorti of Mount Lycaion in Arcadia, above Elaia's grove in
>> > > Phigalia on the river Neda.
>> > >
>> > > Evans 13, Ohlenroth I (iota), shows the same tree ideogram as
>> > > on the gold signet ring from Tiryns and refers to itea = willow.
>> > > Willow trees may have grown along the river Neda in southern
>> > > Arcadia, and along the river Manesse in the Argolis.
>> > >
>> > > Evans 7, Ohlenroth E (epsilon), shows an oven and refers to
>> > > the Arcadian Elaia known as Black _Demeter_ Melaina.
>> > >
>> > > Evans 15, Ohlenroth R (rho), is new and shows an axe, referring
>> > > to rhakhizo = I cut into pieces. The rho on the Tiryns side is
>> > > represented by an ear of grain, referring to rhiza = root, origin,
>> > > tribe, offspring; and to rhizo = I take root, I plant. On the
>> > > Elaia side, the rho is given four times by a thornbush, referring
>> > > to rhakhos = thornbush, evoking the famine caused by Black Demeter
>> > > Melaina; and then, occurring for the last time, by a bronze axe
>> > > meant for cutting the thornbushes, clearing the fields, and
>> > > planting cereals again.
>> > >
>> > > The central sign, the ideogram of the willow tree, is symmetrical,
>> > > so that we can surmise another equivalence. There is in fact
>> > > a correspondence between the use of a bronze axe and the building
>> > > of houses, and there is an equivalence between the Goddess of
>> > > Old Europe, present in her emblem the oven, and in Zeus. Old
>> > > female and new male religion and civilization reconciled.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Next time: E 24
>> > >
>> > > Regards Franz Gnaedinger
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > (o8TY: leave me in peace, you are no longer welcome, and you know
>> > > > why. Join your professor fungus, he is a match for you. I marveled
>> > > > at his reconstruction of the lost spear in the raised hand of the
>> > > > bronze Poseidon from Cape Artemision. Why does he render that spear
>> > > > in horizontal position? Back in 1980 I got a special permission to
>> > > > examine the plaster copy in the archaeological seminar of Zurich
>> > > > university, a copy which had been cast by professor Waser. I can
>> > > > assure you that the spear had an oblique position and was pointing
>> > > > over the fingertips of the outstreched left hand. I found out by
>> > > > means of a long paper roll, which I introduced into the opening
>> > > > of the right hand. However, I had to wait 22 - twenty two - years
>> > > > till an abstract of my then examination of that wonderful statue
>> > > > could be published, namely in the proceedings of the Bridges
>> > > > Conference, year 2002, of Towson University, Maryland; online
>> > > > version on my website: http://www.seshat.ch/home/poseidon.htm)
>> > > >
>> > > > (Jean Faucounau grapheus: next time you pop up in this thread
>> > > > I publish the review on your first book by Yves Duhoux)
>> > > >
>> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Field 22 on the Elaia side of the Phaistos Disk, Evans 25 42
>> > > > 37 22, Ohlenroth Y AY(?) A X (ypsilon alpha-ypsilon? alpha xi),
>> > > > yields HYAYAX - Poseidon in the guise of a stallion neighing,
>> > > > during his copulation with Black Demeter Melaina in the guise
>> > > > of a mare
>> > > >
>> > > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/tiryns.GIF
>> > > >
>> > > > Evans 25, Ohlenroth Y (ypsilon), shows a ship and refers to
>> > > > hydros (beginning with an aspirated ypsilon) = water, in the
>> > > > plural waters, element of a ship, hinting at Poseidon, god of
>> > > > the rivers and of the seas, and creator of the waterborn horse
>> > > > that served as a ship and emblem of a ship, as on the gold ring
>> > > > from Mokhlos in Crete:
>> > > >
>> > > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/elaia.GIF
>> > > >
>> > > > Evans 42, Ohlenroth AY (? alpha-ypsilon), shows, I believe,
>> > > > a ship filled with ores and ingots of various metals: copper,
>> > > > cassiterite, silver, gold; and refers to aiglae = light,
>> > > > shine, lustre. These would be ores and metals purchased by
>> > > > Argivian sailors on the shores of Crete and Egypt, Cyprus,
>> > > > Anatolia, in the lower Danube basin, and on the shores of
>> > > > Italy.
>> > > >
>> > > > Evans 37, Ohlenroth A (alpha), shows a grass and refers to
>> > > > agrostis = grass, green fodder. One may think of a lush meadow
>> > > > where Poseidon's horses graze.
>> > > >
>> > > > Evans 22, Ohlenroth X (xi), shows a piece of wood or a branch,
>> > > > bark peeled off, and refers to xylon = wood, piece of wood.
>> > > > This would be the "round about polished pieces of wood" needed
>> > > > for the sacrificial fire in honor of Despoina / Nyx, daughter
>> > > > of Black Demeter Melaina and Poseidon.
>> > > >
>> > > > The fields E 20 21 render the neighings of Black Demeter Melaina
>> > > > in the guise of a mare and of Poseidon in the guise of a stallion
>> > > > during their copulation that was the origin of Despoina / Nyx,
>> > > > whose priestesses gave oracles in Elaia's grove at Phigalia.
>> > > > Imitating those cries made Despoina / Nyx appear again. She is
>> > > > "always born anew by the Goddess" (end of the Elaia text).
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Next time: field E 23
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