Re: Ashkenazic tav sans dagesh - European influence?

From: I-barya (mujaadil_siddiq_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 09/28/04 

Date: 28 Sep 2004 14:38:31 -0700

Ruud Harmsen <realemailseesite01@rudhar.com> wrote in message news:<8uajl0pdpe417m0h1fa2vdkdgpvl64q98c@4ax.com>...
> 28 Sep 2004 09:51:29 -0700: mujaadil_siddiq@yahoo.com (I-barya): in
> sci.lang:
>
> >When I studied Hebrew, I was taught to pronounce th tav as a t, with
> >or without the dagesh. The Septuagint testifies to a 'th' sound (like
> >the Greek theta) as being one of the sounds the tav could make.
> >However, I notice that many Jews (primarily Ashkenazim?) often
> >pronounce the tav (sans dagesh) like an 's', e.g. shabbos, bris,
> >kesuvim, etc. Is this a European influence?
>
> Yes. Yiddish.

I also wrote:

> >I have heard certain people from Europe pronounce the English
> >'th' like an s (e.g. calling thursday 'sursday'). Is this why
> >so many Jews pronounce the tav (sans dagesh) like an 's'? If
> >not, what is the reason? Thanks.

The question I meant to ask was how this came about. Is it because
there is no 'th' (theta) type phoneme (sp?) in Yiddish, rather it
becomes an 's' or 'z'? Is this also the case with certain forms
(dialects) of German (if multiple forms/dialects exist)? Do they also
employ this sort of pronunciation? Or does this th-->s move originate
somewhere else? Curious. Thanks!