Re: <a> - front or central? [was Re: Another Daniels screwup...]

From: Greg Lee (greg_at_ling.lll.hawaii.edu)
Date: 11/21/04 

Date: 21 Nov 2004 18:30:59 GMT

Tak To <takto@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote:
...
> Every so often I come across these heated discussions (not necessarily
> on sci.lang) on the theme of "X in language A sounds more like Y1 in
> language B than Y2", and I just want to cite a pair of contrasting IPA
> charts to clear up the confusion.

Of course a disagreement about what the vowels sound like or how they
are articulated is not going to be resolved by clarifying the
use of phonetic symbols. I wish folks would get more interested
in what the vowels are actually like. I think there are some
deep seated disagreements about the meaning of the classicatory
terms. Does "low", e.g., refer to tongue position or tongue
gesture, relative to the roof of the mouth or relative to the
jaw, or jaw position? I can distinguish tense [i]/[e]/[ae] with
the same tongue gesture by just raising or lowering my jaw.
Sometimes, following Ladefoged, the classification of vowels
by position is done by measuring the first and second formants,
and so doesn't really refer to the articulation at all, though
it purports to. (I think this is a terrible idea.)

I count my [a] in such words as "pot" as central, on the grounds
that I don't feel any frontward or back gesture of the tongue.
A text I'm using classifies what is probably the very same
vowel as back, perhaps using the formant levels to decide
the matter.

I've heard a tape of Jones saying the "cardinal vowels". They
sounded really strange. I don't see how they can be used as a
reference, and I wonder if anyone actually does so. And if so,
whether they should.

How can we standardize symbol usage until we know what it is
we're symbolizing? 

-- 
Greg Lee <greg@ling.lll.hawaii.edu>

Relevant Pages

  • Re: American R training
    ... sound the best or I have to put much more effort to produce the sound ... some say that the edges of your tongue ... ten vowels. ... the Tenor is my melody, so it should be the Alto part, if I follow ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: <a> - front or central? [was Re: Another Daniels screwup...]
    ... >produced all with the same tongue gesture but different tongue ... >positions produced by lowering the jaw. ... vowels get louder, and more sonorous, but they are still the same ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: <a> - front or central? [was Re: Another Daniels screwup...]
    ... produced all with the same tongue gesture but different tongue ... positions produced by lowering the jaw. ... >>the same tongue gesture by just raising or lowering my jaw. ... The short story is that lax vowels have less extreme gestures/positions ...
    (sci.lang)