Re: deepfriedmars.com

From: Padraig Breathnach (padraigb_at_MUNGEDiol.ie)
Date: 11/22/04 

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:56:12 +0000

"Joseph W. Murphy" <jwmurphy700@mindspring.com> wrote:

>
>"Padraig Breathnach" <padraigb@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote in message
>news:07a2q0hf5ta0181uaig0q3obvt6n8clhun@4ax.com...
>
>> There is a strong relationship between an individual's language and
>> that person's thought processes. Which governs the other is a
>> chicken-and-egg debate.
>>
>
>Padraig, do you think that the Irish think differently for having (generally
>speaking, now) abandoned Gaelic for English?
>
That's a big question.

First, the collapse of Gaelic has been happening over many centuries,
so any consequent changes on Irish society have different degrees of
impact depending on how long an area has been primarily
English-speaking. And, of course, factors other than language change
are important. That said, I see cultural differences between the east
coast area around Dublin (dominantly English-speaking for centuries)
and the west coast (where Gaelic dominated until the 19th century, and
still survives in pockets). I think language is a significant
component in those differences.

Second, the form of English spoken in Ireland differs from Standard
English. The most important element of that difference is the
carrying-over of Gaelic syntax into Hiberno-English. Such usages are
sometimes (usually inaccurately) parodied in representations of the
stage Irishman. But you can find people using expressions like "I'm
after being" or "It's tired I am" which are modelled very closely on
Gaelic. Anybody who wants a good introduction to this phenomenon
should read the plays of John Millington Synge, who represents very
well how things were about a century ago (I believe he represents it
well, but I am not contemporary with the works).

Universal education and mass media are pushing Irish people quite
rapidly towards Standard English.

Now the answer to your question: yes, it looks to me as if those Irish
people who are furthest removed from Gaelic language mode operate
differently from those who are closer to it. Because other factors,
such as economic development, also come into play, it is difficult to
speculate on the degree to which language mode explains such
differences (not to mention that it is difficult to describe and
measure the differences in the first place).

>Just curious. I see you're Irish.
>
[By chance, Herself (a Hiberno-English term) came into the room as I
was typing this, and we conversed briefly in Gaelic. I think I could
feel my mental mode change, but that might be a fancy because of what
I am writing here. Or it might be reflective of our relationship.
Factoring things out in language matters is very difficult.]

>I just came back from 10 days there, by the way. It's a beautiful country.
>I was most impressed by New Grange.
>
This brings us back on-topic for rec.travel.europe, from which I have
been imported into sci.lang by crossposting. Newgrange (one word) is a
bit special.

>And that brings up another question:
>Are there any traces in Gaelic of unexplained etymologies or other features
>indicating contacts with pre-Celtic inhabitants of Ireland?
>
Virtually none, possibly none at all. I think I have heard mention of
some place-names that are thought to be pre-Celtic, but I don't
remember what they are, or how many (except that they are very few).
Gaelic lacks a good etymological dictionary, but I think that I am on
good ground in saying that scholars do not believe that Irish Gaelic
has any features from the language of pre-Celtic inhabitants. 

-- 
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

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