Re: Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child

From: who_cares (too_many_rookiesNOSPAM_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 11/25/04 

Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 06:11:01 GMT

Morals???
They have the morals of HITLER!!

They aren't called ZioNazis for nothing.

=========================================================

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:03:50 -0500, "Riain Y. Barton" <riain@riain.us>
wrote:

>Amazing how in Israel, there are investigations, and laws and rules, moral
>codes, yet they have to deal with an enemy that do not follow any of these
>things, and the world remains silent.
>
>=========================
>
>Nov. 24, 2004 21:57 | Updated Nov. 25, 2004 0:32
>Analysis: Confirming the kill
>By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN
>
>In the IDF there is an expression, "Lo vaditah, lo asitah," (If you didn't
>verify it then you didn't do it).
>
>In the complicated environment the IDF finds itself today, it is difficult
>to say just whether the scandalous "verifying the kill" court martial going
>on now is more than an isolated incident.
>Were it not for the disgruntled soldiers in the Givati auxiliary company in
>the Gaza Strip, the entire incident may have remained just another unit's
>dirty laundry, likely never to see the light of day.
>
>The latest Givati scandal has wracked the army and the state and has pushed
>aside reports of IDF successes in preventing terror. It has raised questions
>about the very soul of the IDF. Did a combat captain "verify" the death of a
>13-year-old Palestinian girl and how much is this behavior prevalent in the
>army today?
>
>"The truth is, that every conflict, and in this case, every intefadeh,
>brings with it their own troubles," said Brig.-Gen. (res.) Amnon Straschnov,
>a former IDF advocate general and retired Tel Aviv District Court judge.
>
>Straschnov said the incident was a "blemish on the combat ethos of the IDF."
>
>"But I wouldn't see this a very wide spread phenomena that has infected all
>the IDF units," Straschnov said.
>
>Still, there is a sense that something may be rotten in the IDF, now
>entering its fifth year of fighting an urban guerrilla war against the
>Palestinian terrorists operating amid innocent civilians.
>
>The discussions of late have dealt mainly with if the captain shot, when he
>shot and how much did he shoot. They do not deal with the deeper questions
>such as how, according to leaked radio transmissions of the incident; some
>soldiers opened fire on a girl even though they know they aren't supposed to
>shoot at girls.
>
>"The behavior of the soldiers is problematic," Straschnov said in an
>interview on Army radio. "Either some of them made false accusations against
>the CO, as he claims and which will be clarified in the court martial, or
>they lent a hand to shooting at an innocent girl and kept silent about it.
>Then, and only because of some issues they had previously against the CO,
>they said what they said. And apparently they didn't tell all of the truth
>in the debriefings."
>
>"This isn't as bad as the alleged shooting and verifying the kill of the
>girl, but it is certainly a phenomena that the IDF chief of general staff
>needs to address when it comes to the credibility of debriefings, which to
>my great regret have not proven to be very credible lately," Straschnov
>said.
>
>The IDF has proudly spotlighted its purity of arms. The common held belief
>is that accusations by the Arabs, often echoed by the world media, that the
>army violates this by collective punishments, harming civilians, mistreating
>prisoners and even mutilating the bodies of dead terrorists, are just plain
>defamation against Israel.
>
>Purity is difficult to preserve, particularly when your enemy follows a
>different set of rules.
>
>The IDF has followed a strict moral code and even indirect violation from it
>causes a strong public outcry. This was seen in the case of Sabra and
>Chatilla, when the IDF command allowed Christian Phalangist militiamen into
>the Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut in 1982 who subsequently massacred
>hundreds of innocent people.
>
>The IDF code of ethics actually spells out when one can shoot an enemy and
>when it would be considered illegal to shoot them.
>
>The term "verifying the kill," has been twisted over the years by soldiers
>to mean a confirmation that their duty was accomplished and not necessary
>executing anyone.
>
>"It is a slang expression by the soldiers who don't truly understand what
>they are supposed to do when their lives are in danger," said Prof. Assa
>Kasher, who drafted the IDF code of ethics.
>He said that shooting one's enemy is an objective issue defined by the level
>of danger they present and it is not a matter of intuition.
>"Sometimes you have to shoot to kill. But you when a man is lying down
>wounded you don't do actions to be on the safe side, you do actions
>according one's consideration if there is danger or not," Kasher said.
>
>"There is no such thing as plugging two more bullets into someone's head to
>be on the safe side. There is no ethical, moral or legal permission to do
>this," Kasher said.
>
>The modern Givati Brigade has borne the brunt of the conflict with the
>Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. They have seen their comrades blown to bits
>in the Zeitun refugee camp and then Palestinians parading around in a frenzy
>with their body parts. This, it turns out, has been the experience of the
>brigade since the beginning of the state.
>
>Col. (ret.) Yitzhak Pundak, one of the founders of the Givati brigade and
>commander of the 53rd battalion in the War of Independence, said the
>phenomenon of "verifying the kill" was always known in war. But he was
>adamant that it never happened in his battalion.
>
>"Every time the Arabs would come upon one of our wounded men they would kill
>them," Pundak said. "One time, we came upon four of our soldiers left behind
>and they had been decapitated. We later saw that the Arabs had stuck their
>heads on stakes in the city of Majdal (Ashkelon)."
>
>"It's hard for a soldier to remain moral after seeing such things, but we
>did," Pundak said. "There were no IDF rules and we didn't have the media or
>lawyers around us back then. Still, I can assure you that none in my unit
>broke the rules of war."
>
>"This episode with the Gavati soldiers bothers me. I think that this thing
>needs to be rooted out. I can understand the fighters today and the way they
>are being eroded and the risk of deviating from normality."
>
>"The IDF needs to be sacred. They can't use their weapons like the Arabs do.
>This verifying the kill, if it indeed happened, is forbidden," he said.
>
>"torresD" <torresd30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Crbpd.767$Ua.184@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>| Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
>| http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html
>| Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
>|
>| Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
>|
>| Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
>| Wednesday November 24, 2004
>| The Guardian
>|
>| An Israeli army officer who repeatedly
>| shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in
>| Gaza dismissed a warning from another
>| soldier that she was a child by saying
>| he would have killed her even if she
>| was three years old.
>|
>| The officer,
>| identified by the army only as Captain R,
>| was charged this week with illegal use
>| of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer
>| and other relatively minor infractions after
>| emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine
>| into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a
>| "security area" on the edge of Rafah
>| refugee camp last month.
>|
>| A tape recording of radio exchanges
>| between soldiers involved in the incident,
>| played on Israeli television,
>|
>| contradicts the army's account of
>| the events and appears to show that
>| the captain shot the girl in cold blood.
>|
>| The official account claimed that Iman
>| was shot as she walked towards an army
>| post with her schoolbag because soldiers
>| feared she was carrying a bomb.
>|
>| But the tape recording of the radio
>| conversation between soldiers at the
>| scene reveals that,
>|
>| from the beginning,
>|
>| she was identified as a child and
>| at no point was a bomb spoken about
>| nor was she described as a threat.
>|
>| Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.
>|
>| Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers
>| swiftly identified her as a "girl of about
>| 10" who was "scared to death".
>|
>| The tape also reveals that the
>| soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards,
>| away from the army post and back into
>| the refugee camp, when she was shot.
>|
>| At that point,
>|
>| Captain R took the unusual
>| decision to leave the post in
>| pursuit of the girl.
>|
>| He shot her dead and then
>| "confirmed the kill" by
>| emptying his magazine into
>| her body.
>|
>|
>| The tape recording is of a three-way
>| conversation between the army watchtower,
>| the army post's operations room and the
>| captain, who was a company commander.
>|
>| The soldier in the watchtower radioed
>| his colleagues after he saw Iman:
>|
>| "It's a little girl.
>| She's running defensively eastward."
>|
>| Operations room:
>| "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
>|
>| Watchtower:
>| "A girl of about 10, she's behind
>| the embankment, scared to death."
>|
>| A few minutes later,
>| Iman is shot in the leg
>| from one of the army posts.
>|
>| The watchtower:
>| "I think that one of the positions took her out."
>|
>| The company commander then moves
>| in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.
>|
>| Captain R:
>|
>| "I and another soldier ...
>| are going in a little nearer,
>| forward, to confirm the kill ...
>|
>| Receive a situation report.
>| We fired and killed her ...
>| I also confirmed the kill. Over."
>|
>| Witnesses described how the
>| captain shot Iman twice in the head,
>| walked away, turned back and fired a
>| stream of bullets into her body.
>|
>| Doctors at Rafah's hospital said
>| she had been shot at least 17 times.
>|
>| On the tape, the company commander
>| then "clarifies" why he killed Iman:
>|
>| "This is commander.
>|
>| Anything that's mobile,
>| that moves in the zone,
>| even if it's a three-year-old,
>| needs to be killed. Over."
>|
>| The army's original account of the
>| killing said that the soldiers only
>| identified Iman as a child after she
>| was first shot.
>|
>| But the tape shows that they were
>| aware just how young the small,
>| slight girl was before any shots were fired.
>|
>| The case came to light after soldiers
>| under the command of Captain R went to
>| an Israeli newspaper to accuse the
>| army of covering up the circumstances
>| of the killing.
>|
>| A subsequent investigation by the
>| officer responsible for the Gaza strip,
>| Major General Dan Harel,
>|
>| concluded that the captain
>| had "not acted unethically".
>|
>| However,
>| the military police
>| launched an investigation,
>| which resulted in charges
>| against the unit commander.
>|
>| Iman's parents have accused the army
>| of whitewashing the affair by filing
>| minor charges against Captain R.
>|
>| They want him prosecuted for murder.
>|
>| Record of a shooting
>|
>| Watchtower
>| 'It's a little girl.
>| She's running defensively eastward'
>|
>| Operations room
>| 'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
>| Watchtower
>| 'A girl of about 10,
>| she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
>|
>| Captain R (after killing the girl)
>| 'Anything moving in the zone,
>| even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|

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