Re: Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child

rgoldman_at_bellsouth.net
Date: 11/25/04 

Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:40:19 -0500

only by the terrorist loving few like yourself ass clown 

-- 
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and  I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
and
http://www.stopfcc.com
"who_cares" <too_many_rookiesNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pptaq0dnrdb9lav26kvp0r5aifkbpdogr5@4ax.com...
> Morals???
> They have the morals of HITLER!!
>
> They aren't called ZioNazis for nothing.
>
> =========================================================
>
> On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:03:50 -0500, "Riain Y. Barton" <riain@riain.us>
> wrote:
>
> >Amazing how in Israel, there are investigations, and laws and rules,
moral
> >codes, yet they have to deal with an enemy that do not follow any of
these
> >things, and the world remains silent.
> >
> >=========================
> >
> >Nov. 24, 2004 21:57  | Updated Nov. 25, 2004 0:32
> >Analysis: Confirming the kill
> >By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN
> >
> >In the IDF there is an expression, "Lo vaditah, lo asitah," (If you
didn't
> >verify it then you didn't do it).
> >
> >In the complicated environment the IDF finds itself today, it is
difficult
> >to say just whether the scandalous "verifying the kill" court martial
going
> >on now is more than an isolated incident.
> >Were it not for the disgruntled soldiers in the Givati auxiliary company
in
> >the Gaza Strip, the entire incident may have remained just another unit's
> >dirty laundry, likely never to see the light of day.
> >
> >The latest Givati scandal has wracked the army and the state and has
pushed
> >aside reports of IDF successes in preventing terror. It has raised
questions
> >about the very soul of the IDF. Did a combat captain "verify" the death
of a
> >13-year-old Palestinian girl and how much is this behavior prevalent in
the
> >army today?
> >
> >"The truth is, that every conflict, and in this case, every intefadeh,
> >brings with it their own troubles," said Brig.-Gen. (res.) Amnon
Straschnov,
> >a former IDF advocate general and retired Tel Aviv District Court judge.
> >
> >Straschnov said the incident was a "blemish on the combat ethos of the
IDF."
> >
> >"But I wouldn't see this a very wide spread phenomena that has infected
all
> >the IDF units," Straschnov said.
> >
> >Still, there is a sense that something may be rotten in the IDF, now
> >entering its fifth year of fighting an urban guerrilla war against the
> >Palestinian terrorists operating amid innocent civilians.
> >
> >The discussions of late have dealt mainly with if the captain shot, when
he
> >shot and how much did he shoot. They do not deal with the deeper
questions
> >such as how, according to leaked radio transmissions of the incident;
some
> >soldiers opened fire on a girl even though they know they aren't supposed
to
> >shoot at girls.
> >
> >"The behavior of the soldiers is problematic," Straschnov said in an
> >interview on Army radio. "Either some of them made false accusations
against
> >the CO, as he claims and which will be clarified in the court martial, or
> >they lent a hand to shooting at an innocent girl and kept silent about
it.
> >Then, and only because of some issues they had previously against the CO,
> >they said what they said. And apparently they didn't tell all of the
truth
> >in the debriefings."
> >
> >"This isn't as bad as the alleged shooting and verifying the kill of the
> >girl, but it is certainly a phenomena that the IDF chief of general staff
> >needs to address when it comes to the credibility of debriefings, which
to
> >my great regret have not proven to be very credible lately," Straschnov
> >said.
> >
> >The IDF has proudly spotlighted its purity of arms. The common held
belief
> >is that accusations by the Arabs, often echoed by the world media, that
the
> >army violates this by collective punishments, harming civilians,
mistreating
> >prisoners and even mutilating the bodies of dead terrorists, are just
plain
> >defamation against Israel.
> >
> >Purity is difficult to preserve, particularly when your enemy follows a
> >different set of rules.
> >
> >The IDF has followed a strict moral code and even indirect violation from
it
> >causes a strong public outcry. This was seen in the case of Sabra and
> >Chatilla, when the IDF command allowed Christian Phalangist militiamen
into
> >the Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut in 1982 who subsequently
massacred
> >hundreds of innocent people.
> >
> >The IDF code of ethics actually spells out when one can shoot an enemy
and
> >when it would be considered illegal to shoot them.
> >
> >The term "verifying the kill," has been twisted over the years by
soldiers
> >to mean a confirmation that their duty was accomplished and not necessary
> >executing anyone.
> >
> >"It is a slang expression by the soldiers who don't truly understand what
> >they are supposed to do when their lives are in danger," said Prof. Assa
> >Kasher, who drafted the IDF code of ethics.
> >He said that shooting one's enemy is an objective issue defined by the
level
> >of danger they present and it is not a matter of intuition.
> >"Sometimes you have to shoot to kill. But you when a man is lying down
> >wounded you don't do actions to be on the safe side, you do actions
> >according one's consideration if there is danger or not," Kasher said.
> >
> >"There is no such thing as plugging two more bullets into someone's head
to
> >be on the safe side. There is no ethical, moral or legal permission to do
> >this," Kasher said.
> >
> >The modern Givati Brigade has borne the brunt of the conflict with the
> >Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. They have seen their comrades blown to
bits
> >in the Zeitun refugee camp and then Palestinians parading around in a
frenzy
> >with their body parts. This, it turns out, has been the experience of the
> >brigade since the beginning of the state.
> >
> >Col. (ret.) Yitzhak Pundak, one of the founders of the Givati brigade and
> >commander of the 53rd battalion in the War of Independence, said the
> >phenomenon of "verifying the kill" was always known in war. But he was
> >adamant that it never happened in his battalion.
> >
> >"Every time the Arabs would come upon one of our wounded men they would
kill
> >them," Pundak said. "One time, we came upon four of our soldiers left
behind
> >and they had been decapitated. We later saw that the Arabs had stuck
their
> >heads on stakes in the city of Majdal (Ashkelon)."
> >
> >"It's hard for a soldier to remain moral after seeing such things, but we
> >did," Pundak said. "There were no IDF rules and we didn't have the media
or
> >lawyers around us back then. Still, I can assure you that none in my unit
> >broke the rules of war."
> >
> >"This episode with the Gavati soldiers bothers me. I think that this
thing
> >needs to be rooted out. I can understand the fighters today and the way
they
> >are being eroded and the risk of deviating from normality."
> >
> >"The IDF needs to be sacred. They can't use their weapons like the Arabs
do.
> >This verifying the kill, if it indeed happened, is forbidden," he said.
> >
> >"torresD" <torresd30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:Crbpd.767$Ua.184@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >| Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
> >| http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html
> >| Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
> >|
> >| Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
> >|
> >| Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
> >| Wednesday November 24, 2004
> >| The Guardian
> >|
> >| An Israeli army officer who repeatedly
> >| shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in
> >| Gaza dismissed a warning from another
> >| soldier that she was a child by saying
> >| he would have killed her even if she
> >| was three years old.
> >|
> >| The officer,
> >| identified by the army only as Captain R,
> >| was charged this week with illegal use
> >| of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer
> >| and other relatively minor infractions after
> >| emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine
> >| into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a
> >| "security area" on the edge of Rafah
> >| refugee camp last month.
> >|
> >| A tape recording of radio exchanges
> >| between soldiers involved in the incident,
> >| played on Israeli television,
> >|
> >| contradicts the army's account of
> >| the events and appears to show that
> >| the captain shot the girl in cold blood.
> >|
> >| The official account claimed that Iman
> >| was shot as she walked towards an army
> >| post with her schoolbag because soldiers
> >| feared she was carrying a bomb.
> >|
> >| But the tape recording of the radio
> >| conversation between soldiers at the
> >| scene reveals that,
> >|
> >| from the beginning,
> >|
> >| she was identified as a child and
> >| at no point was a bomb spoken about
> >| nor was she described as a threat.
> >|
> >| Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.
> >|
> >| Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers
> >| swiftly identified her as a "girl of about
> >| 10" who was "scared to death".
> >|
> >| The tape also reveals that the
> >| soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards,
> >| away from the army post and back into
> >| the refugee camp, when she was shot.
> >|
> >| At that point,
> >|
> >| Captain R took the unusual
> >| decision to leave the post in
> >| pursuit of the girl.
> >|
> >| He shot her dead and then
> >| "confirmed the kill" by
> >| emptying his magazine into
> >| her body.
> >|
> >|
> >| The tape recording is of a three-way
> >| conversation between the army watchtower,
> >| the army post's operations room and the
> >| captain, who was a company commander.
> >|
> >| The soldier in the watchtower radioed
> >| his colleagues after he saw Iman:
> >|
> >| "It's a little girl.
> >| She's running defensively eastward."
> >|
> >| Operations room:
> >| "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
> >|
> >| Watchtower:
> >| "A girl of about 10, she's behind
> >| the embankment, scared to death."
> >|
> >| A few minutes later,
> >| Iman is shot in the leg
> >| from one of the army posts.
> >|
> >| The watchtower:
> >| "I think that one of the positions took her out."
> >|
> >| The company commander then moves
> >| in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.
> >|
> >| Captain R:
> >|
> >| "I and another soldier ...
> >| are going in a little nearer,
> >| forward, to confirm the kill ...
> >|
> >| Receive a situation report.
> >| We fired and killed her ...
> >| I also confirmed the kill. Over."
> >|
> >| Witnesses described how the
> >| captain shot Iman twice in the head,
> >| walked away, turned back and fired a
> >| stream of bullets into her body.
> >|
> >| Doctors at Rafah's hospital said
> >| she had been shot at least 17 times.
> >|
> >| On the tape, the company commander
> >| then "clarifies" why he killed Iman:
> >|
> >| "This is commander.
> >|
> >| Anything that's mobile,
> >| that moves in the zone,
> >| even if it's a three-year-old,
> >| needs to be killed. Over."
> >|
> >| The army's original account of the
> >| killing said that the soldiers only
> >| identified Iman as a child after she
> >| was first shot.
> >|
> >| But the tape shows that they were
> >| aware just how young the small,
> >| slight girl was before any shots were fired.
> >|
> >| The case came to light after soldiers
> >| under the command of Captain R went to
> >| an Israeli newspaper to accuse the
> >| army of covering up the circumstances
> >| of the killing.
> >|
> >| A subsequent investigation by the
> >| officer responsible for the Gaza strip,
> >| Major General Dan Harel,
> >|
> >| concluded that the captain
> >| had "not acted unethically".
> >|
> >| However,
> >| the military police
> >| launched an investigation,
> >| which resulted in charges
> >| against the unit commander.
> >|
> >| Iman's parents have accused the army
> >| of whitewashing the affair by filing
> >| minor charges against Captain R.
> >|
> >| They want him prosecuted for murder.
> >|
> >| Record of a shooting
> >|
> >| Watchtower
> >| 'It's a little girl.
> >| She's running defensively eastward'
> >|
> >| Operations room
> >| 'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
> >| Watchtower
> >| 'A girl of about 10,
> >| she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
> >|
> >| Captain R (after killing the girl)
> >| 'Anything moving in the zone,
> >| even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'
> >|
> >|
> >|
> >|
> >|
> >|
> >|
>

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